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Get off the apps. The Internet is full of this kind of social sleight of hand. Leave it alone. Use it for what it's good at, and intimate relationships is not o

Get off the apps. The Internet is full of this kind of social sleight of hand. Leave it alone. Use it for what it's good at, and intimate relationships is not one of those things, beyond meeting someone. And even that's gotten worse. Learn the dying art of in-person socialization. Memorize interesting things to talk about if needed. Buy a deck of icebreaker cards for inspiration. Strike up conversations anywhere and everywhere. Learn magic tricks to entertain people with. Film things in your neighborhood and show people clips that you think they'd like. For the rusty or nerdy (like me), write test cases for your interactions. Figure out what went wrong if someone isn't receptive. Refine your approach until you figure it out. "Digital everything" has proven to be a dead end. We need to go backwards to go forwards.

blueflow 2y ago
If people could do in-person socialization and pull people, they would not go to OnlyFans in the first place.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  I think the causality might go the other way. They can't "pull" people in person because they spend all their time on OnlyFans. Talking to and charming people is a skill you can develop, not an immutable characteristic.
  - zerkten 2y ago
    It's hard to convince people of this if they haven't developed the skill in any context. I was pleasantly surprised to see @brushfoot's comment and reply at the top when I started reading. I didn't realize I suffered from anxiety until a diagnosis in my mid-30s. I first developed coping skills for work situations in my first internship. Thanks to a great manager who recognized some of my issues and was able to give contextual help. After that my professional life was better, but I struggled in social and academic contexts. Eventually, I started to get the social/relationship part down but only by being forced to because I moved to another country for a job. Without these events, I'm not sure I'd have developed these skills. I still struggle and eventually pursued medication. I suspect some people have an undiagnosed condition, but the majority have limits to their emotional development, challenges from their upbringing, etc. that are very individual to resolve. Unless there is some forcing function, I think the majority of individuals will fall into paths which don't help them. Then it's even harder to get onto a path where it's /just/ a matter of "developing skills".
  - tivert 2y ago
    > I think the causality might go the other way. They can't "pull" people in person because they spend all their time on OnlyFans. Talking to and charming people is a skill you can develop, not an immutable characteristic. And it's not even necessarily much of a skill, it's more spending the time and effort to find people you connect with (and being open to the people you do connect with).
  - account42 2y ago
    Speaking in general is also a skill you can learn yet some people are naturally better at it than others. Same goes for empathy towards those less skilled than yourselves.
- brushfoot 2y ago
  Totally. It's a hard rut to get out of. But it's a skill that can be learned like any other. For me, I'm a bit of a screen junkie with social anxiety. One of my blockers was negative self-talk. I would think, "They're going to get angry. They're going to ignore you. They're busy. You're going to waste their time." I started replacing that with images of the person being interested and delighted by the interaction. That helped, but I also knew that wasn't realistic if I just walked up and blurted out, "Hi, I'm an isolated remote dev and I'd like to talk." Someone might be sympathetic, but I didn't want sympathy; I wanted people to have fun. So I started using the techniques I mentioned. This can all be learned from books on small talk, personality psychology, social dynamics, etc. But unfortunately, it's rarely talked about or taught, at least in my circles. And people are suffering as a consequence.
  - gdjskshh 2y ago
    100% Isolation has a feedback that makes it hard to break out of once you're in really deep. The more desperately lonely you are, the worse your social skills. Strangers are strange when you're a stranger.
  - awithrow 2y ago
    Any specific books you'd recommend?
    - freedomben 2y ago
      Most everything by Leil Lowndes is great IMHO. She helps you understand body language, which is a huge key to success. Most people telegraph their feelings with body language so you can pretty easily recognize who wants to talk and why doesn't. She also has a great sense of humor. Her books are very 90s/00s which might bother some people, hence this warning. Specifically she generalizes quite a bit based on sex/gender. Not in an exclusive way, but if you're somebody who feels strongly for example that there is no biological difference between the sexes, then you might have a hard time with her books. "How to talk to anyone" would be my first recommendation.
  - j45 2y ago
- Disruptive_Dave 2y ago
  You're missing quite a bit of understanding here. First, I think the biggest concern is young men, who maybe haven't even had the chance to develop these social skills because they are born with the internet. Second, pick-up type skills (or any cold approach type activity) easily atrophy over time if not consistently employed. Shit, one year into a monogamous relationship and I suddenly get anxious at the thought of approaching strangers in a social setting, something I was quite comfortable with 13 months ago.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  "If people could do in-person socialization and pull people, they would not go to OnlyFans in the first place. " Are you sure. I think Only Fans was growing pretty rapidly before Covid and before AI. If I want a cute furry girl to scream at me that spaces are better than tabs, so i'm worthless coder, I'm not getting that in regular 'in-person' socialization.
  - nemomarx 2y ago
    well sure, but you could probably get it on discord or something :v
  - xxs 2y ago
    I do understand and agree about the spaces over tabs but why furry as well?
- api 2y ago
  You don't do in-person socialization to "pull" people. You "pull" git repositories. You do in-person socialization to experience the companionship of other human beings. It can be done over the net too, but in-person is better while the net has been actively and intentionally made worse to monetize addiction. If you want a girlfriend/boyfriend you start by making friends with people. Then you will notice some of your friends are of your sexually compatible gender, which means you may have friends that want to have sex. Also helps to avoid listening to incel/femcel, PUA, and similar bullshit that actively makes the listener repellent. A lot of women for example will ghost at the first whiff of Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson adjacent thinking, and as a man I'd do the same at the first whiff of the kind of stuff you hear on the angry womens' subreddits. I don't want someone with a head full of influencer poison. A major reason to get off the apps is because the apps (social media and similar) reward toxicity and exploitation and are structurally designed to be maximally addictive, meaning they're made to keep you on them not talking to other people. Social media stopped being social around 2012 really. I call them tobacco companies of the mind.
  - blueflow 2y ago
    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pull https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pull
    - api 2y ago
      Yeah that was kind of my point. Hope I wasn't too much of a jerk about it, but I think the idea that you're just meat and that all interactions are transactional is what turns people off. The real "red pill" is disconnecting from the matrix of social media, influencers, and PUA/MGTOW/incel (or their female equivalents, which do exist) stuff and being human. The "matrix" is monetized, manipulative, addictive social media and apps. Influencers are people who have aligned themselves intentionally with this matrix to ride on it and monetize you. Wasn't that how it was in the movie? Blue pill == stay connected to the matrix, red pill == go to the real world.
      - topheroo 2y ago
- duxup 2y ago
  I think people choose this because it is easier, not because they simply can't do it.
- Andrex 2y ago
  Self-fulfilling prophecy laced with abject defeatism and a refusal for self-improvement...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- vinceguidry 2y ago
  I do in-person socialization all the time, and I still maintain an OnlyFans account. I don't talk to the models, but that's only because I'm demisexual and therefore would be paying $$$$ for an unsatisfying experience.
keybored 2y ago
Not gonna happen.
awongh 2y ago
Some people would find the kind of nerdy and analytical "social optimization" you describe more creepy and objectionable than chatting with an OnlyFans model. (whether or not they are actually an AI) This is not a personal attack, but just my observation of how people perceive the way social interactions should work. Part of these perceptions would also be why people are driven to chat with women on OnlyFans, and why an AI would be effective....
- kevinob11 2y ago
  While describing it this way may make it sound worse, this is (IME) how it works. For some folks the optimization is intuitive and mostly happens subconsciously for some others it doesn't and needs more focus. A long time ago I started noting when people (esp. my partner) said they like certain things in my phone, then I get them as gifts days, weeks, months, years later. People now think I'm very thoughtful, but I'm just a good note taker. The experience made me think that people who are naturally more "thoughtful", at least partially, just have better memories.
  - ExtraRoulette 2y ago
    I get the optimization thing. I also replay situations in my head and how it could have gone better. I even save notes/reminders/mindmaps for the next time I talk to someone or I'm in a particular social situation. That's just how my mind works, and I can't remember everything. I also second your approach. I have a todo.txt file of various restaurants, experiences, places my gf wants to visit. Next time I want to plan a date, I look up the list ("Hey babe, let's go that that [RESTAURANT MENTIONED 3 MONTHS AGO] tonight. It's proven to be a very good system. <3
  - Invictus0 2y ago
    The behavior you're describing does make you a thoughtful person even though the thoughts aren't necessarily in the front of your mind. Check out the concept of embodied cognition.
- LightBug1 2y ago
  What's your suggestion? (Same, not a personal attack, I'm interested in this subject and good to see it from different views).
jajko 2y ago
I would add - just make yourself more interesting. No faking, no lies, just a bit of good old hard work. Could be anynthing - get more fit by taking up sports or gym. Men are more attracted to fit women, why would an opposite direction be different. Each of us can be a better version of ourselves. With improvements comes better confidence, again a thing the opposite notices. Then it will start working on its own. Help it by exposing yourselves more to the opposite sex ie in some social events related to your strengths to speed things up. This trajectory will change people for the better. Its really that simple (and complex)
- xxs 2y ago
  >get more fit by taking up sports or gym. Buy a new shirt that fits. Generally, don't dress like a total slob and care about your-silly-self a bit. >No faking, no lies, just a bit of good old hard work While I agree about no lies. no faking - faking confidence initially does help immensely - if you don't believe yourself, nobody else will. Being confident is a skill that can be learnt.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Fake confidence is miles away from a real one. A keen eye can see the difference immediately. It doesn't mean even fake one can't make a difference, depends on 'target', it maturity, intelligence etc. But if you expect a lot from the opposite side, you need to deliver at least as much, the more the better. Agree with appearance, its a bit silly game but it works so who am I to question it.
    - xxs 2y ago
      >Fake confidence is miles away from a real one. No doubt about it. Many people can tell how forced it feels. Yet, w/o any confidence (fake or otherwise), there won't be any steps made - hence no progress. Again, with time confidence can be 'mastered'.
heresie-dabord 2y ago
> Learn the dying art of in-person socialization. Memorize interesting things to talk about if needed. Buy a deck of icebreaker cards for inspiration. [...] Strike up conversations anywhere and everywhere. Adaptive socialisation happens through conversation. It is as scary to live in a society where conversation is forbidden as it is in a society where discourse is manipulated or perhaps even made overwhelmingly toxic to the point where people relapse into the sort of brutish tribalism that... forms the plot of many Roddenberry episodes.
- tylerchilds 2y ago
  Agoraphobia “Fear of places and situations that might cause panic, helplessness, or embarrassment. Agoraphobia is an anxiety disorder that often develops after one or more panic attacks. Symptoms include fear and avoidance of places and situations that might cause feelings of panic, entrapment, helplessness, or embarrassment. Treatments include talk therapy and medication.” turns out, the poison (talking) is the cure (talking).
  - killjoywashere 2y ago
    More true than you might think: rat poison (coumadin) saves lives as an anticoagulant. Conversely, Tylenol can kill you. Very few non-smoking alcoholics have serious atherosclerosis on autopsy, but lots of people die of alcoholism. Life finds a way. Or sometimes not.
  - ARandomerDude 2y ago
    Agree with your point. Old man will now yell at cloud: Whoever came up with the modern definition of "agoraphobia" has failed to define the term. "Fear of places and situations that might cause panic, helplessness, or embarrassment." Is there any other kind of fear? The word is so broadly inclusive as to have little meaning. ἀγορά (agora) – assembly, especially an assembly of the people; the place of assembly; speech; market, marketplace [1] φόβος (phobos) – fear, terror, alarm, fright, panic [2] Agoraphobia seems straightforwardly to mean "fear of public spaces and interactions." A person might say that etymology is not definition, but if you look at the most common examples of agoraphobia, this is exactly what's being described. [3] We need to stop being so "inclusive" in our definitions! The purpose of a definition is to make something finite, i.e., to circumscribe its boundaries in order to enable clear thinking about that specific term. Broad definitions harm critical thinking. 1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AC https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%C... 2. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8C%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8C%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%8... 3. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/agoraphobia/overview/ https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/agoraphobia/over...
TheRealPomax 2y ago
Or, make money by publishing on onlyfans and use any service you can to maximize that profit because the power of boners is an excellent source of revenue, including using AI assistants in the exact same way we used IRC chatbots back in the day. This is a business, plain and simple.
reverendsteveii 2y ago
Slight disagreement here: I don't think it's an issue of in-person socialization, I think it's an issue of non-person socialization. Keeping track of real people that you know in real life, or even meeting real people in small, closed groups (ideally physically local to you) is a great thing that social media does. Robot armies owned by nefarious actors whose whole purpose is to elicit any emotional response from you is also a thing social media is really good at. Digital Everything might not be what was promised to us but it's here and it's not 100% useless. After all, aren't we here on a social network having this discussion right now?
cloverich 2y ago
> "Digital everything" has proven to be a dead end. We need to go backwards to go forwards Hey I agree with this. But also an alternative path. I'm one of those people who did learn all the social skills and while not witty I can in general navigate and make conversation with all kinds of people now, and have been doing it for decades at this point. But the reality is before I found online niche communities like HN, what i felt was... extreme isolation and loneliness. The internet is a doom scrolling nightmare, but there's a part of it that lets folks like me find community they may otherwise never have found. I feel we're in a nadir of social networks at this point, where they are all optimized for superficial attention and (simply put) money. But there's a huge untapped potential there for helping people find, form, and maintain communities. You can technically do that now, but you have to swim somewhat upstream (ex: stick to more niche areas of Reddit, and bail when it becomes popular). It doesn't have to be like this. I've been pessimistic about technology and the limits of the digital world for the first half of my life, but I'm done with that now. I recognize the issue is people like me have spent far too long bemoaning the state of things, and not nearly enough time building the world we want to see. I love your advice, and agree with it. But I also think the digital world can be so much more than it is now. I hope other folks like me are waking up and realizing they have to build the world they want to see, rather than (only) trying to maximize their life skills in this existing one.
tubalcain 2y ago
Most of what determines the success of a social introduction made in hopes of gaining a physical partner for men is predicated on their physical attractiveness, mostly through genetically determined factors such as height, facial bone structure, and other non modifiable characteristics. Studying your own social interactions to see where you may have gone wrong is likely a fool's errand. Physical attraction is determined visually in milliseconds, which means there's little to nothing you can change via behaviors to increase success in that way. The rise of simp apps like onlyfans reflects the total desperation of men who fail to meet the genetic standards for looks. You are correct that the reach of social media is responsible as it has isolated most average men, as attractive men are always a swipe away for any woman who is looking. While your suggestion to be more social is healthy and helpful for most daily interactions, looking for partners requires more than just that, it requires looks.
- giantrobot 2y ago
  Holy shit. Ugly people get laid all the time. They also have long term relationships and get married and make ugly children. Your "genetic Incel" shit is ridiculous. Good looking people might have social interactions set to easy mode by it's simply stupid to say just because you didn't hit the genetic lottery means no one will ever get close to you. You know a better determinant of good social interactions? Confidence. If you carry yourself well and don't act like a toxic man-o-sphere dipshit people won't avoid you. You can be ugly as sin but have a good personality and get laid. Far too many young people fall prey to influencers and think they're just doomed to loneliness. Then they adopt the stupidest most toxic personality which only creates a self-fulfilling prophesy. Be clean, don't slouch, smile, and tell some funny light jokes. People like that. No one gives a shit about bone structure. Humans aren't robots responding automatically to genetic programming.
  - tubalcain 2y ago
    I find it cliched but still interesting that the rebuttals to my opinion on this particular topic are so vitriolic and laden with, as the poster above you has done,ad hominems and emphatic statements of incredulity. It kind of supports the assertion that ugly people are so disliked that to even suggest that they might be at a severe disadvantage is fought against because giving them even a smidge of sympathy or acknowledgement due to the accident of their birth is simply untenable. It might also stem from a rejection of the concept due to inciting hopelessness in the rejector should they accept it as true. Or maybe it's unconscious yet ill informed benevolent dishonesty. Nevertheless, there are countless scientific studies outlining the severe disadvantage ugliness inflicts on people in all aspects of life. This has been magnified by social media. You can't really "bootstraps mentality" physical attractiveness outside of weight control. All the confidence in the world won't help a goblin be desirable. Plus, personality is as genetic as looks, and some people just aren't wired for extroversion. I fear that pushing a bootstraps narrative for ugly people will just result in unwarranted self blame.
barbazoo 2y ago
> Strike up conversations anywhere and everywhere. I've never been able to do that but in the last 2 years or so I've somehow gained the confidence/ability/interest, whatever it is. Where I live, in the grocery store, on walks, etc people really don't seem to mind short random conversations a lot of the time. Perhaps I used to think they mind because that was the mindset I was in myself at the time.
MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
This is the first time I've heard of test cases for social interaction. Do you have any examples or resources for this?
- alfalfasprout 2y ago
  If you have to ask...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
petsfed 2y ago
I think its less "digital everything", and more "digital everything at the expense of analog somethings". Just about every in-person social structure is experiencing falling numbers. For a lot of these (church, especially), there's good reason for why that particular structure needed to change or fall, but there's been nothing to replace the old structure. But for others, they experience failing numbers because modern society has become incompatible with unstructured, non-productive in-person interaction with strangers. "Where will I find the time to go to this singles mixer for bird watchers, I have to work 70 hours this week just to make rent?", etc.

blueflow 2y ago

If people could do in-person socialization and pull people, they would not go to OnlyFans in the first place.

AlexandrB 2y ago
I think the causality might go the other way. They can't "pull" people in person because they spend all their time on OnlyFans. Talking to and charming people is a skill you can develop, not an immutable characteristic.
- zerkten 2y ago
  It's hard to convince people of this if they haven't developed the skill in any context. I was pleasantly surprised to see @brushfoot's comment and reply at the top when I started reading. I didn't realize I suffered from anxiety until a diagnosis in my mid-30s. I first developed coping skills for work situations in my first internship. Thanks to a great manager who recognized some of my issues and was able to give contextual help. After that my professional life was better, but I struggled in social and academic contexts. Eventually, I started to get the social/relationship part down but only by being forced to because I moved to another country for a job. Without these events, I'm not sure I'd have developed these skills. I still struggle and eventually pursued medication. I suspect some people have an undiagnosed condition, but the majority have limits to their emotional development, challenges from their upbringing, etc. that are very individual to resolve. Unless there is some forcing function, I think the majority of individuals will fall into paths which don't help them. Then it's even harder to get onto a path where it's /just/ a matter of "developing skills".
- tivert 2y ago
  > I think the causality might go the other way. They can't "pull" people in person because they spend all their time on OnlyFans. Talking to and charming people is a skill you can develop, not an immutable characteristic. And it's not even necessarily much of a skill, it's more spending the time and effort to find people you connect with (and being open to the people you do connect with).
- account42 2y ago
  Speaking in general is also a skill you can learn yet some people are naturally better at it than others. Same goes for empathy towards those less skilled than yourselves.
brushfoot 2y ago
Totally. It's a hard rut to get out of. But it's a skill that can be learned like any other. For me, I'm a bit of a screen junkie with social anxiety. One of my blockers was negative self-talk. I would think, "They're going to get angry. They're going to ignore you. They're busy. You're going to waste their time." I started replacing that with images of the person being interested and delighted by the interaction. That helped, but I also knew that wasn't realistic if I just walked up and blurted out, "Hi, I'm an isolated remote dev and I'd like to talk." Someone might be sympathetic, but I didn't want sympathy; I wanted people to have fun. So I started using the techniques I mentioned. This can all be learned from books on small talk, personality psychology, social dynamics, etc. But unfortunately, it's rarely talked about or taught, at least in my circles. And people are suffering as a consequence.
- gdjskshh 2y ago
  100% Isolation has a feedback that makes it hard to break out of once you're in really deep. The more desperately lonely you are, the worse your social skills. Strangers are strange when you're a stranger.
- awithrow 2y ago
  Any specific books you'd recommend?
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Most everything by Leil Lowndes is great IMHO. She helps you understand body language, which is a huge key to success. Most people telegraph their feelings with body language so you can pretty easily recognize who wants to talk and why doesn't. She also has a great sense of humor. Her books are very 90s/00s which might bother some people, hence this warning. Specifically she generalizes quite a bit based on sex/gender. Not in an exclusive way, but if you're somebody who feels strongly for example that there is no biological difference between the sexes, then you might have a hard time with her books. "How to talk to anyone" would be my first recommendation.
- j45 2y ago
Disruptive_Dave 2y ago
You're missing quite a bit of understanding here. First, I think the biggest concern is young men, who maybe haven't even had the chance to develop these social skills because they are born with the internet. Second, pick-up type skills (or any cold approach type activity) easily atrophy over time if not consistently employed. Shit, one year into a monogamous relationship and I suddenly get anxious at the thought of approaching strangers in a social setting, something I was quite comfortable with 13 months ago.
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
"If people could do in-person socialization and pull people, they would not go to OnlyFans in the first place. " Are you sure. I think Only Fans was growing pretty rapidly before Covid and before AI. If I want a cute furry girl to scream at me that spaces are better than tabs, so i'm worthless coder, I'm not getting that in regular 'in-person' socialization.
- nemomarx 2y ago
  well sure, but you could probably get it on discord or something :v
- xxs 2y ago
  I do understand and agree about the spaces over tabs but why furry as well?
api 2y ago
You don't do in-person socialization to "pull" people. You "pull" git repositories. You do in-person socialization to experience the companionship of other human beings. It can be done over the net too, but in-person is better while the net has been actively and intentionally made worse to monetize addiction. If you want a girlfriend/boyfriend you start by making friends with people. Then you will notice some of your friends are of your sexually compatible gender, which means you may have friends that want to have sex. Also helps to avoid listening to incel/femcel, PUA, and similar bullshit that actively makes the listener repellent. A lot of women for example will ghost at the first whiff of Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson adjacent thinking, and as a man I'd do the same at the first whiff of the kind of stuff you hear on the angry womens' subreddits. I don't want someone with a head full of influencer poison. A major reason to get off the apps is because the apps (social media and similar) reward toxicity and exploitation and are structurally designed to be maximally addictive, meaning they're made to keep you on them not talking to other people. Social media stopped being social around 2012 really. I call them tobacco companies of the mind.
- blueflow 2y ago
  https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pull https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pull
  - api 2y ago
    Yeah that was kind of my point. Hope I wasn't too much of a jerk about it, but I think the idea that you're just meat and that all interactions are transactional is what turns people off. The real "red pill" is disconnecting from the matrix of social media, influencers, and PUA/MGTOW/incel (or their female equivalents, which do exist) stuff and being human. The "matrix" is monetized, manipulative, addictive social media and apps. Influencers are people who have aligned themselves intentionally with this matrix to ride on it and monetize you. Wasn't that how it was in the movie? Blue pill == stay connected to the matrix, red pill == go to the real world.
    - topheroo 2y ago
duxup 2y ago
I think people choose this because it is easier, not because they simply can't do it.
Andrex 2y ago
Self-fulfilling prophecy laced with abject defeatism and a refusal for self-improvement...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
vinceguidry 2y ago
I do in-person socialization all the time, and I still maintain an OnlyFans account. I don't talk to the models, but that's only because I'm demisexual and therefore would be paying $$$$ for an unsatisfying experience.

keybored 2y ago

Not gonna happen.

awongh 2y ago

Some people would find the kind of nerdy and analytical "social optimization" you describe more creepy and objectionable than chatting with an OnlyFans model. (whether or not they are actually an AI) This is not a personal attack, but just my observation of how people perceive the way social interactions should work. Part of these perceptions would also be why people are driven to chat with women on OnlyFans, and why an AI would be effective....

kevinob11 2y ago
While describing it this way may make it sound worse, this is (IME) how it works. For some folks the optimization is intuitive and mostly happens subconsciously for some others it doesn't and needs more focus. A long time ago I started noting when people (esp. my partner) said they like certain things in my phone, then I get them as gifts days, weeks, months, years later. People now think I'm very thoughtful, but I'm just a good note taker. The experience made me think that people who are naturally more "thoughtful", at least partially, just have better memories.
- ExtraRoulette 2y ago
  I get the optimization thing. I also replay situations in my head and how it could have gone better. I even save notes/reminders/mindmaps for the next time I talk to someone or I'm in a particular social situation. That's just how my mind works, and I can't remember everything. I also second your approach. I have a todo.txt file of various restaurants, experiences, places my gf wants to visit. Next time I want to plan a date, I look up the list ("Hey babe, let's go that that [RESTAURANT MENTIONED 3 MONTHS AGO] tonight. It's proven to be a very good system. <3
- Invictus0 2y ago
  The behavior you're describing does make you a thoughtful person even though the thoughts aren't necessarily in the front of your mind. Check out the concept of embodied cognition.
LightBug1 2y ago
What's your suggestion? (Same, not a personal attack, I'm interested in this subject and good to see it from different views).

jajko 2y ago

I would add - just make yourself more interesting. No faking, no lies, just a bit of good old hard work. Could be anynthing - get more fit by taking up sports or gym. Men are more attracted to fit women, why would an opposite direction be different. Each of us can be a better version of ourselves. With improvements comes better confidence, again a thing the opposite notices. Then it will start working on its own. Help it by exposing yourselves more to the opposite sex ie in some social events related to your strengths to speed things up. This trajectory will change people for the better. Its really that simple (and complex)

xxs 2y ago
>get more fit by taking up sports or gym. Buy a new shirt that fits. Generally, don't dress like a total slob and care about your-silly-self a bit. >No faking, no lies, just a bit of good old hard work While I agree about no lies. no faking - faking confidence initially does help immensely - if you don't believe yourself, nobody else will. Being confident is a skill that can be learnt.
- jajko 2y ago
  Fake confidence is miles away from a real one. A keen eye can see the difference immediately. It doesn't mean even fake one can't make a difference, depends on 'target', it maturity, intelligence etc. But if you expect a lot from the opposite side, you need to deliver at least as much, the more the better. Agree with appearance, its a bit silly game but it works so who am I to question it.
  - xxs 2y ago
    >Fake confidence is miles away from a real one. No doubt about it. Many people can tell how forced it feels. Yet, w/o any confidence (fake or otherwise), there won't be any steps made - hence no progress. Again, with time confidence can be 'mastered'.

heresie-dabord 2y ago

> Learn the dying art of in-person socialization. Memorize interesting things to talk about if needed. Buy a deck of icebreaker cards for inspiration. [...] Strike up conversations anywhere and everywhere. Adaptive socialisation happens through conversation. It is as scary to live in a society where conversation is forbidden as it is in a society where discourse is manipulated or perhaps even made overwhelmingly toxic to the point where people relapse into the sort of brutish tribalism that... forms the plot of many Roddenberry episodes.

tylerchilds 2y ago
Agoraphobia “Fear of places and situations that might cause panic, helplessness, or embarrassment. Agoraphobia is an anxiety disorder that often develops after one or more panic attacks. Symptoms include fear and avoidance of places and situations that might cause feelings of panic, entrapment, helplessness, or embarrassment. Treatments include talk therapy and medication.” turns out, the poison (talking) is the cure (talking).
- killjoywashere 2y ago
  More true than you might think: rat poison (coumadin) saves lives as an anticoagulant. Conversely, Tylenol can kill you. Very few non-smoking alcoholics have serious atherosclerosis on autopsy, but lots of people die of alcoholism. Life finds a way. Or sometimes not.
- ARandomerDude 2y ago
  Agree with your point. Old man will now yell at cloud: Whoever came up with the modern definition of "agoraphobia" has failed to define the term. "Fear of places and situations that might cause panic, helplessness, or embarrassment." Is there any other kind of fear? The word is so broadly inclusive as to have little meaning. ἀγορά (agora) – assembly, especially an assembly of the people; the place of assembly; speech; market, marketplace [1] φόβος (phobos) – fear, terror, alarm, fright, panic [2] Agoraphobia seems straightforwardly to mean "fear of public spaces and interactions." A person might say that etymology is not definition, but if you look at the most common examples of agoraphobia, this is exactly what's being described. [3] We need to stop being so "inclusive" in our definitions! The purpose of a definition is to make something finite, i.e., to circumscribe its boundaries in order to enable clear thinking about that specific term. Broad definitions harm critical thinking. 1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AC https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%C... 2. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8C%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8C%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%8... 3. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/agoraphobia/overview/ https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/agoraphobia/over...

TheRealPomax 2y ago

Or, make money by publishing on onlyfans and use any service you can to maximize that profit because the power of boners is an excellent source of revenue, including using AI assistants in the exact same way we used IRC chatbots back in the day. This is a business, plain and simple.

reverendsteveii 2y ago

Slight disagreement here: I don't think it's an issue of in-person socialization, I think it's an issue of non-person socialization. Keeping track of real people that you know in real life, or even meeting real people in small, closed groups (ideally physically local to you) is a great thing that social media does. Robot armies owned by nefarious actors whose whole purpose is to elicit any emotional response from you is also a thing social media is really good at. Digital Everything might not be what was promised to us but it's here and it's not 100% useless. After all, aren't we here on a social network having this discussion right now?

cloverich 2y ago

> "Digital everything" has proven to be a dead end. We need to go backwards to go forwards Hey I agree with this. But also an alternative path. I'm one of those people who did learn all the social skills and while not witty I can in general navigate and make conversation with all kinds of people now, and have been doing it for decades at this point. But the reality is before I found online niche communities like HN, what i felt was... extreme isolation and loneliness. The internet is a doom scrolling nightmare, but there's a part of it that lets folks like me find community they may otherwise never have found. I feel we're in a nadir of social networks at this point, where they are all optimized for superficial attention and (simply put) money. But there's a huge untapped potential there for helping people find, form, and maintain communities. You can technically do that now, but you have to swim somewhat upstream (ex: stick to more niche areas of Reddit, and bail when it becomes popular). It doesn't have to be like this. I've been pessimistic about technology and the limits of the digital world for the first half of my life, but I'm done with that now. I recognize the issue is people like me have spent far too long bemoaning the state of things, and not nearly enough time building the world we want to see. I love your advice, and agree with it. But I also think the digital world can be so much more than it is now. I hope other folks like me are waking up and realizing they have to build the world they want to see, rather than (only) trying to maximize their life skills in this existing one.

tubalcain 2y ago

Most of what determines the success of a social introduction made in hopes of gaining a physical partner for men is predicated on their physical attractiveness, mostly through genetically determined factors such as height, facial bone structure, and other non modifiable characteristics. Studying your own social interactions to see where you may have gone wrong is likely a fool's errand. Physical attraction is determined visually in milliseconds, which means there's little to nothing you can change via behaviors to increase success in that way. The rise of simp apps like onlyfans reflects the total desperation of men who fail to meet the genetic standards for looks. You are correct that the reach of social media is responsible as it has isolated most average men, as attractive men are always a swipe away for any woman who is looking. While your suggestion to be more social is healthy and helpful for most daily interactions, looking for partners requires more than just that, it requires looks.

giantrobot 2y ago
Holy shit. Ugly people get laid all the time. They also have long term relationships and get married and make ugly children. Your "genetic Incel" shit is ridiculous. Good looking people might have social interactions set to easy mode by it's simply stupid to say just because you didn't hit the genetic lottery means no one will ever get close to you. You know a better determinant of good social interactions? Confidence. If you carry yourself well and don't act like a toxic man-o-sphere dipshit people won't avoid you. You can be ugly as sin but have a good personality and get laid. Far too many young people fall prey to influencers and think they're just doomed to loneliness. Then they adopt the stupidest most toxic personality which only creates a self-fulfilling prophesy. Be clean, don't slouch, smile, and tell some funny light jokes. People like that. No one gives a shit about bone structure. Humans aren't robots responding automatically to genetic programming.
- tubalcain 2y ago
  I find it cliched but still interesting that the rebuttals to my opinion on this particular topic are so vitriolic and laden with, as the poster above you has done,ad hominems and emphatic statements of incredulity. It kind of supports the assertion that ugly people are so disliked that to even suggest that they might be at a severe disadvantage is fought against because giving them even a smidge of sympathy or acknowledgement due to the accident of their birth is simply untenable. It might also stem from a rejection of the concept due to inciting hopelessness in the rejector should they accept it as true. Or maybe it's unconscious yet ill informed benevolent dishonesty. Nevertheless, there are countless scientific studies outlining the severe disadvantage ugliness inflicts on people in all aspects of life. This has been magnified by social media. You can't really "bootstraps mentality" physical attractiveness outside of weight control. All the confidence in the world won't help a goblin be desirable. Plus, personality is as genetic as looks, and some people just aren't wired for extroversion. I fear that pushing a bootstraps narrative for ugly people will just result in unwarranted self blame.

barbazoo 2y ago

> Strike up conversations anywhere and everywhere. I've never been able to do that but in the last 2 years or so I've somehow gained the confidence/ability/interest, whatever it is. Where I live, in the grocery store, on walks, etc people really don't seem to mind short random conversations a lot of the time. Perhaps I used to think they mind because that was the mindset I was in myself at the time.

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago

This is the first time I've heard of test cases for social interaction. Do you have any examples or resources for this?

alfalfasprout 2y ago
If you have to ask...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

petsfed 2y ago

I think its less "digital everything", and more "digital everything at the expense of analog somethings". Just about every in-person social structure is experiencing falling numbers. For a lot of these (church, especially), there's good reason for why that particular structure needed to change or fall, but there's been nothing to replace the old structure. But for others, they experience failing numbers because modern society has become incompatible with unstructured, non-productive in-person interaction with strangers. "Where will I find the time to go to this singles mixer for bird watchers, I have to work 70 hours this week just to make rent?", etc.