7 ms·

Love Leptos! Consider what these guys built on a shoestring budget compared to Dioxus which raised at least half a million in venture capital.

sedatk 2y ago
Half a million means hiring two or three devs for a year.
- weinzierl 2y ago
  The point is that Leptos became awesome even with no money.
  - jkelleyrtp 2y ago
    Dioxus was awesome for a long time without money :) As my little side project, we pioneered html-templates, wasm-bindgen string interning, macro hot-reloading, macro auto-formatting, multi-platform builds, native HTML/css rendering, and a number of other "awesome" things before raising a dollar. Users want a guarantee the project isn't going to disappear tomorrow and sadly 100 bucks a month on open collective isn't a great guarantee.
    - weinzierl 2y ago
      I am sorry, but I have seen projects going down too often once VC capital got involved to be positive about it. VC capital is just one indicator. Maybe you can answer: Do you require a CLA or copyright assignment? I don't see it on the GitHub page but then again other projects (like MongoDB) have hidden theirs pretty well. How many of the contributors are directly payed for their contributions?
      - jkelleyrtp 2y ago
        In, my opinion it's good for ambitious projects to have a stable financial foundation. What negative things one project does because of venture capital does not mean another will. There's no CLA. Dioxus is MIT/Apache-2 licensed. > How many of the contributors are directly payed for their contributions? I unfortunately feel like you're asking this in bad faith. Our team is very small, we're very lean, and we have funding sources that aren't just venture. We also have a very active community and people are building new libraries and becoming dioxus contributors every day. https://github.com/DioxusLabs/dioxus/releases/tag/v0.6.0 https://github.com/DioxusLabs/dioxus/releases/tag/v0.6.0 (scroll to contributors)
        weinzierl 2y ago
        I am sorry if this came across the wrong way. I am not trying to upset you with these questions. If you say your team is small I understand that it is not the majority of contributors that are on your payroll and that is good enough for me to see Dioxus as a real community project. Thanks for your answers.
      - apitman 2y ago
        Complexity can be almost as effective a moat as a CLA. If they went closed I doubt anyone would start an effective fork.
    - davidatbu 2y ago
      As a leptos user, I just wanted to say that I appreciate everything you have outlined here (and more) that you have done for the Rust/wasm ecosystem (especially since other people here seem to be less appreciative of your contributions because you've raised VC funds, and I feel like as an open source maintainer, you probably hear much more from 'dissatisfied customers' than the satisfied ones). I'm particularly excited about your research on actually hot-reloading Rust binary code. I hope it leads to reduced incremental compilation times (IIUC).
  - sedatk 2y ago
    No. It just means some people gifted the project the same amount of money by volunteering. I don’t see why volunteer dev work would be more valuable. It’s the same work. Those people have the same living costs.
- jokethrowaway 2y ago
  Or 10 european seniors
  - sedatk 2y ago
    Fair enough :)
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    European programming salaries aren't that low. It's probably more like 6 for a year (remember companies pay tax and pension too).
    - rapsey 2y ago
      It varies a lot. Are they in Bosnia or are they in Germany.
- zipy124 2y ago
  Only in the US. You could get 10 good Devs in London for this money, or even more juniors/internship.
feznyng 2y ago
Could be missing something on the Leptos site, but isn't this apples to oranges? Leptos is web only while Dioxus is web + mobile + desktop.
gbjma 2y ago
I can only speak for myself (myself here = gbj/Greg of Leptos) — I'm in a happy situation in life that allows me to spend a bit of time working on open source, but can't and don't want to do it full time, let alone start a start up; a bit of GitHub sponsorship money pays my coffee bills and so on, but Leptos is not (and won't ever be) a commercial venture. And at the same time: I am absolutely delighted that Dioxus has managed to raise some money so Jon can work full time and bring others into the work full time. This really, really is a "rising tide lifts all boats" type of situation... I would 100% rather capital go toward things like building out a viable Rust ecosystem and improving build tooling than the alternatives ("it's TikTok, but with an LLM!" etc.) Our two projects have collaborated successfully and will continue to collaborate and inspire each other in the future, I'm quite sure. This isn't meant as a rebuke to your very kind comment about the work I've/we've managed to do for free, I just wanted to chime in to say that in my opinion, both of these are good!

sedatk 2y ago

Half a million means hiring two or three devs for a year.

weinzierl 2y ago
The point is that Leptos became awesome even with no money.
- jkelleyrtp 2y ago
  Dioxus was awesome for a long time without money :) As my little side project, we pioneered html-templates, wasm-bindgen string interning, macro hot-reloading, macro auto-formatting, multi-platform builds, native HTML/css rendering, and a number of other "awesome" things before raising a dollar. Users want a guarantee the project isn't going to disappear tomorrow and sadly 100 bucks a month on open collective isn't a great guarantee.
  - weinzierl 2y ago
    I am sorry, but I have seen projects going down too often once VC capital got involved to be positive about it. VC capital is just one indicator. Maybe you can answer: Do you require a CLA or copyright assignment? I don't see it on the GitHub page but then again other projects (like MongoDB) have hidden theirs pretty well. How many of the contributors are directly payed for their contributions?
    - jkelleyrtp 2y ago
      In, my opinion it's good for ambitious projects to have a stable financial foundation. What negative things one project does because of venture capital does not mean another will. There's no CLA. Dioxus is MIT/Apache-2 licensed. > How many of the contributors are directly payed for their contributions? I unfortunately feel like you're asking this in bad faith. Our team is very small, we're very lean, and we have funding sources that aren't just venture. We also have a very active community and people are building new libraries and becoming dioxus contributors every day. https://github.com/DioxusLabs/dioxus/releases/tag/v0.6.0 https://github.com/DioxusLabs/dioxus/releases/tag/v0.6.0 (scroll to contributors)
      - weinzierl 2y ago
        I am sorry if this came across the wrong way. I am not trying to upset you with these questions. If you say your team is small I understand that it is not the majority of contributors that are on your payroll and that is good enough for me to see Dioxus as a real community project. Thanks for your answers.
    - apitman 2y ago
      Complexity can be almost as effective a moat as a CLA. If they went closed I doubt anyone would start an effective fork.
  - davidatbu 2y ago
    As a leptos user, I just wanted to say that I appreciate everything you have outlined here (and more) that you have done for the Rust/wasm ecosystem (especially since other people here seem to be less appreciative of your contributions because you've raised VC funds, and I feel like as an open source maintainer, you probably hear much more from 'dissatisfied customers' than the satisfied ones). I'm particularly excited about your research on actually hot-reloading Rust binary code. I hope it leads to reduced incremental compilation times (IIUC).
- sedatk 2y ago
  No. It just means some people gifted the project the same amount of money by volunteering. I don’t see why volunteer dev work would be more valuable. It’s the same work. Those people have the same living costs.
jokethrowaway 2y ago
Or 10 european seniors
- sedatk 2y ago
  Fair enough :)
- IshKebab 2y ago
  European programming salaries aren't that low. It's probably more like 6 for a year (remember companies pay tax and pension too).
  - rapsey 2y ago
    It varies a lot. Are they in Bosnia or are they in Germany.
zipy124 2y ago
Only in the US. You could get 10 good Devs in London for this money, or even more juniors/internship.

feznyng 2y ago

Could be missing something on the Leptos site, but isn't this apples to oranges? Leptos is web only while Dioxus is web + mobile + desktop.

gbjma 2y ago

I can only speak for myself (myself here = gbj/Greg of Leptos) — I'm in a happy situation in life that allows me to spend a bit of time working on open source, but can't and don't want to do it full time, let alone start a start up; a bit of GitHub sponsorship money pays my coffee bills and so on, but Leptos is not (and won't ever be) a commercial venture. And at the same time: I am absolutely delighted that Dioxus has managed to raise some money so Jon can work full time and bring others into the work full time. This really, really is a "rising tide lifts all boats" type of situation... I would 100% rather capital go toward things like building out a viable Rust ecosystem and improving build tooling than the alternatives ("it's TikTok, but with an LLM!" etc.) Our two projects have collaborated successfully and will continue to collaborate and inspire each other in the future, I'm quite sure. This isn't meant as a rebuke to your very kind comment about the work I've/we've managed to do for free, I just wanted to chime in to say that in my opinion, both of these are good!