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WordPress CEO quits community Slack after court injunction

147 points by davidcollantes 2y ago

petemir 2y ago
Quite a jump from the original title: "WordPress CEO Rage Quits Community Slack After Court Injunction" @dang could it be fixed?
- dang 2y ago
  Yes, I've reverted it now (debaited from "rage quits", per https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). (Submitted title was "Matt Mullenweg keeps digging his own grave". It's possible that the article originally had that as its headline, but if not, then it was editorialized, which is against the rules - "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
mordymoop 2y ago
I found it frustrating that the article highlights Mullenweg’s actions while failing to even briefly describe what WP Engine is, and what actions they took. The story felt very incomplete, perhaps intended for someone who is already familiar with all the details. I have copied below excerpts from the Wikipedia entry on WP Engine because I found it clarifying. > WP Engine's main function is allowing businesses and organizations to build, host, and manage websites powered by WordPress. > During the week preceding September 22, 2024, Matt Mullenweg—founder of WordPress.com—began speaking negatively about rival WP Engine. Mullenweg gave a speech at WordCamp US 2024 that argued that WP Engine had made meager contributions to WordPress compared to Automattic, criticized WP Engine's significant ties to private equity, and called for a boycott, sparking internet controversy.[30] In response, WP Engine issued a cease and desist against what it characterized as defamation and extortion, attributing his attacks to WP Engine's refusal to pay Automattic "a significant percentage of its gross revenues – tens of millions of dollars in fact – on an ongoing basis" for what it claimed were necessary trademark licensing fees (later clarified as 8% of all revenue, payable in gross or in salaries for its own employees working under WordPress.org's direction, combined with a clause that would've prohibited forking[31]) for the "WordPress" name.[32] Automattic responded by sending its own cease and desist the next day, citing the trademark issue.[33] On October 2, 2024, WP Engine sued Automattic and Mullenweg for extortion and abuse of power, which the defendants denied.[31] As a result of the dispute, WordPress.org blocked WP Engine and affiliates from accessing its servers—which include security updates, the plugin and theme repository, and more—on September 25, 2024, a day after its trademark policy was updated[34] to ask against usage of WP "in a way that confuses people", listing WP Engine as an example.[35] Following backlash, access to WordPress.org was temporarily restored until October 1 to allow WP Engine to build its own mirror sites two days later,[36][37] which the company did.[35] On the 12th, WordPress.org replaced the listing of WP Engine's Advanced Custom Fields (ACF) plugin on the WordPress.org plugin directory with a fork called "Secure Custom Fields" citing a guideline that empowers the foundation to "make changes to a plugin, without developer consent, in the interest of public safety".[38] On October 7, 2024, to align the company's stance, Mullenweg announced that 159 employees—8.4% of Automattic—had quit in exchange for a severance package of $30,000 or six months of salary, whichever is higher, with the condition that the resigned would not be able to return.[39] The next week concluded another offer of nine months' salary to attempt to placate those who could not quit for financial reasons,[40] though with only four hours to respond and the added term of being excluded from the WordPress.org community.[35]
- datadrivenangel 2y ago
  WP Engine is definitely using the open source to make money, and is a big competitor to wordpress, but Matt is going scorched earth in a way that seems both embarrassing and ineffective. It would be better if WP Engine contributed more to the open source project that they make so much money from, but it's not illegal or immoral. Maybe Amoral at worse?
  - bdcravens 2y ago
    If profiting off of open source without contributing back substantially is amoral, there's such a long list of companies (to say nothing of developers with upper middle-class incomes) who are similarly guilty.
  - buttercraft 2y ago
    It's really weird for matt to say they don't contribute while simultaneously taking over one of the most popular plug-ins that they contributed.
    - itsdrewmiller 2y ago
      My understanding is that they bought ACF in 2022 - this article from 2021 doesn't mention them at all. https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/10-years-of-acf-a-truly-wonderful-time/ https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/10-years-of-acf-a-... Your overall point is still valid though - they were for example sponsors of the very conference where mm first went berserk.
      - buttercraft 2y ago
        I don't think it really matters whether they paid for it with with cash or labor.
    - misnome 2y ago
      And blocking core contributors with their stupid “Affiliated Checkbox”. Unfortunately outright lying and saying that “I personally don’t think they voluntarily contribute enough” is “contributes nothing” seems to have been partially successful in seeding the idea.
whalesalad 2y ago
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- that_guy_iain 2y ago
  > second, the entirety of WP was produced from "free labor" by people all over the world. matt is just the beneficiary. grow up dude. it is about time for an Ayahuasca retreat or two to beat down some of that monumental ego. Open Source does not mean free labour. WordPress has been built by people employed by Matt either via Automattic or via his other entities. WordPress would not exist as it is without Matt. To the point, if Matt didn't like you, you would find it hard to contribute. He may be a dickhead and in the wrong. But acting like he's benefiting from other people's free labour just shows you've never paid attention to the development of WordPress.
  - whalesalad 2y ago
    Dude I have been using WP since the fork from B2 decades ago. Insane to suggest that free labor isn't why it's where it is today.
    - that_guy_iain 2y ago
      Sure... That's why nearly all the top contributors through out time have been paid to full-time work on WordPress by an entity related to Matt... Because free labour... Using WordPress and paying attention to Trac are two different things.
      - whalesalad 2y ago
        There was a time where wordpress.com did not exist, you are glossing over that.
        that_guy_iain 2y ago
        But that time is long gone and WordPress being what is it today fundamentally depends on paid labour and not free labour. It would have withered to the side like other CMSes that depended on free labour. Nearly every top contributor that we can see in the WordPress commit history was paid.
perihelions 2y ago
Additional comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42382829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42382829 ("WPEngine, Inc. vs. Automattic– Order on Motion for Preliminary Injunction (courtlistener.com)", 19 hours ago, 107 comments)
curiousgal 2y ago
I mean, judging by his laughably pathetic attempt at extortion, I am not surprised that he didn't see this coming.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  Given the legal thrashing that was just doled out, primarily from quoting the man’s public statements, why is he still saying anything on the topic?
  - spacecadet 2y ago
    Drunk on power
mistercheph 2y ago
This situation is tragic, wish Matt was handling this better, and WPEngine is a parasite.
- threatofrain 2y ago
  WPEngine is no more a parasite than just about every business using Linux or Chrome without offering material support. Parasites drain their host but does WPEngine hurt or drain Wordpress? In fact, doesn't WPEngine just make WordPress more popular as a business solution?
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Exactly. A parasite would be a company that adopts an open-source solution, then "extends" it in an incompatible way, pushing their own proprietary extension that no one else is allowed to use.
drannex 2y ago
None of this is surprising - anyone who was on tumblr and saw the absolute meltdown he had (Automattic now owns Tumblr, for those who lost track), and his continuous weird scorch-earth attacks on the queer community where he kept making up lies and justifications for decisions that made little sense, would have known he was in the early stages of a seemingly complete mental breakdown. He personally digitally stalked and targeted online users, followed them from site to site, publishing and using user details that weren't public, and personally started attacking and practically doxxing those that couldn't take or understand his weird (unintelligible) stances. He would even argue with random users by PM'ing directly. Which gets even stranger that he doesn't know to stay quiet, considering Automattic had to pay out to the New York City Commission on Human Rights, for constructing teams and moderation policies that unfairly targetted LGBTQ+ individuals^2. They kept the policies after acquisition, made them worse, and ended up paying out for it - just for them to end up going back to what they were doing. --- To 404Media: There is an incredible article waiting to be written that has your name all over it. It was a huuuge thing that Automattic tried to cover up and keep from breaking containment. Just start with "the car full of hammers" comment that led to the blow-up (after a lot of targeted build-up). He self-destructed and went absolutely mental, it was weird and strange. This was last year. Edit: knowyourmeme^2 has a little bit of history, but it goes much deeper. It's a great story that Vice would have covered in extremely poignant details years ago, ready for the taking. ^1: https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/25/22949293/tumblr-nycchr-settlement-adult-content-ban-algorithmic-bias-lgbtq https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/25/22949293/tumblr-nycchr-se... ^2: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/tumblr-ceo-transphobic-moderation-controversy https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/tumblr-ceo-transphobic...
- sidet 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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Kina 2y ago
The most worrying thing is that Mullenweg just seems unwell and has created his own reality distortion field where he can no longer see the absurdness and damaging nature of his actions. His behavior reminds me of a cult leader or a celebrity where they surround themselves with only people who do their bidding and gradually slip into this state.
- ivraatiems 2y ago
  I agree, this seems like it's veering from "angry rich person wants thing" into "petulant child throws a fit when they don't get thing." At least Wordpress is open source - if it disappears, something can take its place.
  - snypher 2y ago
    I don't see much difference, except the angry rich person can afford to throw the fit ahead of time.
JuanSucks 2y ago
"In October, Mullenweg announced that he’d given Automattic employees a buyout package, and 159 employees, or roughly 8.4 percent of staff, took the offer. “I feel much lighter,” he wrote. But shortly after, he reportedly complained that the company was now “very short staffed.”" The jokes write themselves.
- nchmy 2y ago
  He then offered another buyout package with even more generous terms, with like a 4 hour period to accept it. People did, and then he said "yeah, um, we're gonna ask you to say on indefinitely because we're really short staffed"
- lobsterthief 2y ago
  And what’s even more hilarious is the 8.4% probably represented the top talent as they’re generally more mobile and have other prospects.
stevebmark 2y ago
Very happy to see the punishment start against Matt, and I sincerely hope it continues and escalates. Not wishing for the end of WordPress, but Matt clearly needed to go a long time ago, and repercussions for his constant terrible actions will hopefully force him out.
deleted 2y ago
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thih9 2y ago
Curiously, in an old tweet Matt praises the openness of the web[1]. I guess this is in response to the bans elsewhere (twitter?); but still, Wordpress was positioned as an open alternative. At the moment I feel uncertain about Wordpress and its status. Are there any plans to bring more stability here? Of all the tech CEOs to get humbled in 2024, why did it have to be one from an open source project? [1]: https://x.com/photomatt/status/1644390660781244417 https://x.com/photomatt/status/1644390660781244417
- bravetraveler 2y ago
  > Of all the tech CEOs to get humbled in 2024, why did it have to be one from an open source project? He, by his own account, went 'scorched earth'/overreached as a result of his ignorance with licensing (either true or demonstrative). Any marks on his back, he put there. Open source will genuinely be better off without people like him co-opting it. WordPress may be forked (won't be the first time, there's currently 12.6k) I'm wildly interested to see where this all goes. Where does Matt/WordPress.(org|com)/the Foundation end?
  - thih9 2y ago
    To be clear, I am not defending this particular ceo, I only wish better for open source projects and Wordpress in particular. Off topic, as someone prone to overreacting I have a lot of compassion towards Matt. At the same time it was his choice to attack the other party so actively and I wouldn’t try to excuse that.
    - bravetraveler 2y ago
      I agree! Apologies if my post is abrasive. I wish better for Matt, in particular, as well. Despite his actions, I hope better for him too. Not just OSS or specifically WordPress. With any good lie there's a nugget of truth. I do get the sense that Matt cares about these principles... my criticism is 'just' that they've been to mislead. The guy tried to take an emotional argument he was having with himself to court. That works with the public, less so with a judge. Especially when documenting your rage/material impact at such depth.
kayson 2y ago
What's the legal basis for granting the injuction? Also what's WP Engine's legal basis for their counter suit? Isn't it Automattic's business? Can't they refuse to do business with someone if they want?
- tommica 2y ago
  Well put... It feels weird
- buttercraft 2y ago
  It's described in the preliminary injunction linked in the article. I can't seem to copy-paste, but it's multipart test including whether the plaintiff is likely to succeed on the merits, and also public interest. It's under the heading "legal standard." Every part of the test went in WP Engine's favor.
- ivraatiems 2y ago
  Refusing to do business with someone is one thing. Using your power over a competitor to shove them out of the marketplace and, in effect, giving them reverse special treatment in order to punish them and only them, that's not the same.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42382829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42382829 links the paperwork including a PDF discussing that
- x0x0 2y ago
  My memory of listening to a real attorney discuss this [1] WP Engine showed they will be irreparably harmed, which in this case, means harmed in a way that cash can't fix. Thus the judge is preserving the status quo ante while the suit is worked out. (see 31:52 [1]). edit: requires 1. likelihood (not more likely than not to win, but must show a decent chance); 2. w/o relief, will suffer irreparable harm (as discussed above: can't fix w/ money) 3. balance of equities favors you (more fair to freeze); 4. public interest supports injunction 3 - 4 are, per Mike, fuzzy and "result driven". The most critical factors are success and harm. Separately, there is a thing called "Promissory estoppel" where, even though you don't have a contract, you make a promise (Matt: wp.org is free forever to anyone), someone (WP Engine) relies on that promise to their detriment, and the plaintiff's reliance on that promise was reasonable. Discussion of promissory estoppel at 44:17 in [1] [1] A discussion by attorney Mike Dunford, or so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdwiZEhRS3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdwiZEhRS3o
ivraatiems 2y ago
For those who might be wondering what comes next - IANAL, but, this is what seems to usually happen: Automattic has 72 hours to comply with the order. They probably will, plus or minus Matt being a whiny child about it. They have competent attorneys who are surely telling them to do so. They can also appeal the order, and they could even ask for the appeal to be granted on an emergency basis, but there's no promise that'd work, and usually it doesn't. The whole point of injunctions is that they stop things from changing until they're overturned by appeal or trial. If they do comply, the status quo resumes until this goes to trial. There's no guarantee that WP Engine prevails at trial, but the fact that the injunction was granted means it's pretty likely they will, unless facts or law materially changes in the meantime. The statement Automattic released suggests to me that this is the path they'll take. If they do not comply, things become... interesting. Of course, the case still eventually goes to trial. In the meantime, though, WP Engine can ask the court to force Automattic to comply. That probably looks like a motion to show cause why they have not complied, followed by further orders to comply and possible contempt findings. Contempt findings often come with monetary fines that escalate (e. g. $1,000 per day the first week, $2,000 per day the next, and so on). It can also come with jail time, though I am not sure how that works in cases where the entity being sued is a company. It probably won't get to that, though. Refusing to comply with a preliminary injunction is an extremely bad idea, which is why almost nobody does it. Even states and government actors with strong political desires for things and a lot of power nearly always comply. While Matt Mullenweg is clearly not a rational actor, and clearly is willing to do extremely dumb things despite the advice of council, the other people who work for Automattic (and certainly its investors) are unlikely to be so willing to ignore the order of a federal court. If they do, their lives are going to get worse, not better, and possibly rapidly. As of this writing, the Automattic WP Engine tracker site is still up. (Hopefully some actual attorneys who read HN can correct anything I got wrong. I just haven't seen anyone write this out yet.)
markandrewj 2y ago
As someone who was around before WordPress existed, and witnessed all the proprietary CMS systems of the day, as well as personally building custom CMS systems professionally, it disappoints me to watch this unfold. I used to see WordPress as an example of how open-source can be good business. Being open-source, and comparatively better then other proprietary options at the time, made WordPress an attractive option, and its user base grew rapidly. Blogging was also more popular then, although people still blog. I think as of today there are better options then WordPress, and blogging is not the same as in the past. I think because of peoples history with products like WordPress, many people have gravitated towards static site generators. Early on Automattic seemed like a place I might want to work, but obviously a lot that has changed since WordPress first launched. I can't see myself wanting to work there now, or wanting to use WordPress again. Not to mention I moved on from PHP a long time ago.
xet7 2y ago
Is there any possibility, that he could stop self-sabotage, and continue maintain WordPress, so there would not be a need to migrate 43.7% of all websites from WordPress to different CMS, or different update URLs for everything? But I don't know actually what this is all about, is there any possibility. I hope all the best for him anyway.

Quite a jump from the original title: "WordPress CEO Rage Quits Community Slack After Court Injunction" @dang could it be fixed?

dang 2y ago
Yes, I've reverted it now (debaited from "rage quits", per https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). (Submitted title was "Matt Mullenweg keeps digging his own grave". It's possible that the article originally had that as its headline, but if not, then it was editorialized, which is against the rules - "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

mordymoop 2y ago

I found it frustrating that the article highlights Mullenweg’s actions while failing to even briefly describe what WP Engine is, and what actions they took. The story felt very incomplete, perhaps intended for someone who is already familiar with all the details. I have copied below excerpts from the Wikipedia entry on WP Engine because I found it clarifying. > WP Engine's main function is allowing businesses and organizations to build, host, and manage websites powered by WordPress. > During the week preceding September 22, 2024, Matt Mullenweg—founder of WordPress.com—began speaking negatively about rival WP Engine. Mullenweg gave a speech at WordCamp US 2024 that argued that WP Engine had made meager contributions to WordPress compared to Automattic, criticized WP Engine's significant ties to private equity, and called for a boycott, sparking internet controversy.[30] In response, WP Engine issued a cease and desist against what it characterized as defamation and extortion, attributing his attacks to WP Engine's refusal to pay Automattic "a significant percentage of its gross revenues – tens of millions of dollars in fact – on an ongoing basis" for what it claimed were necessary trademark licensing fees (later clarified as 8% of all revenue, payable in gross or in salaries for its own employees working under WordPress.org's direction, combined with a clause that would've prohibited forking[31]) for the "WordPress" name.[32] Automattic responded by sending its own cease and desist the next day, citing the trademark issue.[33] On October 2, 2024, WP Engine sued Automattic and Mullenweg for extortion and abuse of power, which the defendants denied.[31] As a result of the dispute, WordPress.org blocked WP Engine and affiliates from accessing its servers—which include security updates, the plugin and theme repository, and more—on September 25, 2024, a day after its trademark policy was updated[34] to ask against usage of WP "in a way that confuses people", listing WP Engine as an example.[35] Following backlash, access to WordPress.org was temporarily restored until October 1 to allow WP Engine to build its own mirror sites two days later,[36][37] which the company did.[35] On the 12th, WordPress.org replaced the listing of WP Engine's Advanced Custom Fields (ACF) plugin on the WordPress.org plugin directory with a fork called "Secure Custom Fields" citing a guideline that empowers the foundation to "make changes to a plugin, without developer consent, in the interest of public safety".[38] On October 7, 2024, to align the company's stance, Mullenweg announced that 159 employees—8.4% of Automattic—had quit in exchange for a severance package of $30,000 or six months of salary, whichever is higher, with the condition that the resigned would not be able to return.[39] The next week concluded another offer of nine months' salary to attempt to placate those who could not quit for financial reasons,[40] though with only four hours to respond and the added term of being excluded from the WordPress.org community.[35]

datadrivenangel 2y ago
WP Engine is definitely using the open source to make money, and is a big competitor to wordpress, but Matt is going scorched earth in a way that seems both embarrassing and ineffective. It would be better if WP Engine contributed more to the open source project that they make so much money from, but it's not illegal or immoral. Maybe Amoral at worse?
- bdcravens 2y ago
  If profiting off of open source without contributing back substantially is amoral, there's such a long list of companies (to say nothing of developers with upper middle-class incomes) who are similarly guilty.
- buttercraft 2y ago
  It's really weird for matt to say they don't contribute while simultaneously taking over one of the most popular plug-ins that they contributed.
  - itsdrewmiller 2y ago
    My understanding is that they bought ACF in 2022 - this article from 2021 doesn't mention them at all. https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/10-years-of-acf-a-truly-wonderful-time/ https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/10-years-of-acf-a-... Your overall point is still valid though - they were for example sponsors of the very conference where mm first went berserk.
    - buttercraft 2y ago
      I don't think it really matters whether they paid for it with with cash or labor.
  - misnome 2y ago
    And blocking core contributors with their stupid “Affiliated Checkbox”. Unfortunately outright lying and saying that “I personally don’t think they voluntarily contribute enough” is “contributes nothing” seems to have been partially successful in seeding the idea.

whalesalad 2y ago

[flagged]

that_guy_iain 2y ago
> second, the entirety of WP was produced from "free labor" by people all over the world. matt is just the beneficiary. grow up dude. it is about time for an Ayahuasca retreat or two to beat down some of that monumental ego. Open Source does not mean free labour. WordPress has been built by people employed by Matt either via Automattic or via his other entities. WordPress would not exist as it is without Matt. To the point, if Matt didn't like you, you would find it hard to contribute. He may be a dickhead and in the wrong. But acting like he's benefiting from other people's free labour just shows you've never paid attention to the development of WordPress.
- whalesalad 2y ago
  Dude I have been using WP since the fork from B2 decades ago. Insane to suggest that free labor isn't why it's where it is today.
  - that_guy_iain 2y ago
    Sure... That's why nearly all the top contributors through out time have been paid to full-time work on WordPress by an entity related to Matt... Because free labour... Using WordPress and paying attention to Trac are two different things.
    - whalesalad 2y ago
      There was a time where wordpress.com did not exist, you are glossing over that.
      - that_guy_iain 2y ago
        But that time is long gone and WordPress being what is it today fundamentally depends on paid labour and not free labour. It would have withered to the side like other CMSes that depended on free labour. Nearly every top contributor that we can see in the WordPress commit history was paid.

perihelions 2y ago

Additional comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42382829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42382829 ("WPEngine, Inc. vs. Automattic– Order on Motion for Preliminary Injunction (courtlistener.com)", 19 hours ago, 107 comments)

curiousgal 2y ago

I mean, judging by his laughably pathetic attempt at extortion, I am not surprised that he didn't see this coming.

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
Given the legal thrashing that was just doled out, primarily from quoting the man’s public statements, why is he still saying anything on the topic?
- spacecadet 2y ago
  Drunk on power

mistercheph 2y ago

This situation is tragic, wish Matt was handling this better, and WPEngine is a parasite.

threatofrain 2y ago
WPEngine is no more a parasite than just about every business using Linux or Chrome without offering material support. Parasites drain their host but does WPEngine hurt or drain Wordpress? In fact, doesn't WPEngine just make WordPress more popular as a business solution?
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Exactly. A parasite would be a company that adopts an open-source solution, then "extends" it in an incompatible way, pushing their own proprietary extension that no one else is allowed to use.

drannex 2y ago

None of this is surprising - anyone who was on tumblr and saw the absolute meltdown he had (Automattic now owns Tumblr, for those who lost track), and his continuous weird scorch-earth attacks on the queer community where he kept making up lies and justifications for decisions that made little sense, would have known he was in the early stages of a seemingly complete mental breakdown. He personally digitally stalked and targeted online users, followed them from site to site, publishing and using user details that weren't public, and personally started attacking and practically doxxing those that couldn't take or understand his weird (unintelligible) stances. He would even argue with random users by PM'ing directly. Which gets even stranger that he doesn't know to stay quiet, considering Automattic had to pay out to the New York City Commission on Human Rights, for constructing teams and moderation policies that unfairly targetted LGBTQ+ individuals^2. They kept the policies after acquisition, made them worse, and ended up paying out for it - just for them to end up going back to what they were doing. --- To 404Media: There is an incredible article waiting to be written that has your name all over it. It was a huuuge thing that Automattic tried to cover up and keep from breaking containment. Just start with "the car full of hammers" comment that led to the blow-up (after a lot of targeted build-up). He self-destructed and went absolutely mental, it was weird and strange. This was last year. Edit: knowyourmeme^2 has a little bit of history, but it goes much deeper. It's a great story that Vice would have covered in extremely poignant details years ago, ready for the taking. ^1: https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/25/22949293/tumblr-nycchr-settlement-adult-content-ban-algorithmic-bias-lgbtq https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/25/22949293/tumblr-nycchr-se... ^2: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/tumblr-ceo-transphobic-moderation-controversy https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/tumblr-ceo-transphobic...

sidet 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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Kina 2y ago

The most worrying thing is that Mullenweg just seems unwell and has created his own reality distortion field where he can no longer see the absurdness and damaging nature of his actions. His behavior reminds me of a cult leader or a celebrity where they surround themselves with only people who do their bidding and gradually slip into this state.

ivraatiems 2y ago
I agree, this seems like it's veering from "angry rich person wants thing" into "petulant child throws a fit when they don't get thing." At least Wordpress is open source - if it disappears, something can take its place.
- snypher 2y ago
  I don't see much difference, except the angry rich person can afford to throw the fit ahead of time.

JuanSucks 2y ago

"In October, Mullenweg announced that he’d given Automattic employees a buyout package, and 159 employees, or roughly 8.4 percent of staff, took the offer. “I feel much lighter,” he wrote. But shortly after, he reportedly complained that the company was now “very short staffed.”" The jokes write themselves.

nchmy 2y ago
He then offered another buyout package with even more generous terms, with like a 4 hour period to accept it. People did, and then he said "yeah, um, we're gonna ask you to say on indefinitely because we're really short staffed"
lobsterthief 2y ago
And what’s even more hilarious is the 8.4% probably represented the top talent as they’re generally more mobile and have other prospects.

stevebmark 2y ago

Very happy to see the punishment start against Matt, and I sincerely hope it continues and escalates. Not wishing for the end of WordPress, but Matt clearly needed to go a long time ago, and repercussions for his constant terrible actions will hopefully force him out.

deleted 2y ago

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thih9 2y ago

Curiously, in an old tweet Matt praises the openness of the web[1]. I guess this is in response to the bans elsewhere (twitter?); but still, Wordpress was positioned as an open alternative. At the moment I feel uncertain about Wordpress and its status. Are there any plans to bring more stability here? Of all the tech CEOs to get humbled in 2024, why did it have to be one from an open source project? [1]: https://x.com/photomatt/status/1644390660781244417 https://x.com/photomatt/status/1644390660781244417

bravetraveler 2y ago
> Of all the tech CEOs to get humbled in 2024, why did it have to be one from an open source project? He, by his own account, went 'scorched earth'/overreached as a result of his ignorance with licensing (either true or demonstrative). Any marks on his back, he put there. Open source will genuinely be better off without people like him co-opting it. WordPress may be forked (won't be the first time, there's currently 12.6k) I'm wildly interested to see where this all goes. Where does Matt/WordPress.(org|com)/the Foundation end?
- thih9 2y ago
  To be clear, I am not defending this particular ceo, I only wish better for open source projects and Wordpress in particular. Off topic, as someone prone to overreacting I have a lot of compassion towards Matt. At the same time it was his choice to attack the other party so actively and I wouldn’t try to excuse that.
  - bravetraveler 2y ago
    I agree! Apologies if my post is abrasive. I wish better for Matt, in particular, as well. Despite his actions, I hope better for him too. Not just OSS or specifically WordPress. With any good lie there's a nugget of truth. I do get the sense that Matt cares about these principles... my criticism is 'just' that they've been to mislead. The guy tried to take an emotional argument he was having with himself to court. That works with the public, less so with a judge. Especially when documenting your rage/material impact at such depth.

kayson 2y ago

What's the legal basis for granting the injuction? Also what's WP Engine's legal basis for their counter suit? Isn't it Automattic's business? Can't they refuse to do business with someone if they want?

tommica 2y ago
Well put... It feels weird
buttercraft 2y ago
It's described in the preliminary injunction linked in the article. I can't seem to copy-paste, but it's multipart test including whether the plaintiff is likely to succeed on the merits, and also public interest. It's under the heading "legal standard." Every part of the test went in WP Engine's favor.
ivraatiems 2y ago
Refusing to do business with someone is one thing. Using your power over a competitor to shove them out of the marketplace and, in effect, giving them reverse special treatment in order to punish them and only them, that's not the same.
yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42382829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42382829 links the paperwork including a PDF discussing that
x0x0 2y ago
My memory of listening to a real attorney discuss this [1] WP Engine showed they will be irreparably harmed, which in this case, means harmed in a way that cash can't fix. Thus the judge is preserving the status quo ante while the suit is worked out. (see 31:52 [1]). edit: requires 1. likelihood (not more likely than not to win, but must show a decent chance); 2. w/o relief, will suffer irreparable harm (as discussed above: can't fix w/ money) 3. balance of equities favors you (more fair to freeze); 4. public interest supports injunction 3 - 4 are, per Mike, fuzzy and "result driven". The most critical factors are success and harm. Separately, there is a thing called "Promissory estoppel" where, even though you don't have a contract, you make a promise (Matt: wp.org is free forever to anyone), someone (WP Engine) relies on that promise to their detriment, and the plaintiff's reliance on that promise was reasonable. Discussion of promissory estoppel at 44:17 in [1] [1] A discussion by attorney Mike Dunford, or so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdwiZEhRS3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdwiZEhRS3o

ivraatiems 2y ago

For those who might be wondering what comes next - IANAL, but, this is what seems to usually happen: Automattic has 72 hours to comply with the order. They probably will, plus or minus Matt being a whiny child about it. They have competent attorneys who are surely telling them to do so. They can also appeal the order, and they could even ask for the appeal to be granted on an emergency basis, but there's no promise that'd work, and usually it doesn't. The whole point of injunctions is that they stop things from changing until they're overturned by appeal or trial. If they do comply, the status quo resumes until this goes to trial. There's no guarantee that WP Engine prevails at trial, but the fact that the injunction was granted means it's pretty likely they will, unless facts or law materially changes in the meantime. The statement Automattic released suggests to me that this is the path they'll take. If they do not comply, things become... interesting. Of course, the case still eventually goes to trial. In the meantime, though, WP Engine can ask the court to force Automattic to comply. That probably looks like a motion to show cause why they have not complied, followed by further orders to comply and possible contempt findings. Contempt findings often come with monetary fines that escalate (e. g. $1,000 per day the first week, $2,000 per day the next, and so on). It can also come with jail time, though I am not sure how that works in cases where the entity being sued is a company. It probably won't get to that, though. Refusing to comply with a preliminary injunction is an extremely bad idea, which is why almost nobody does it. Even states and government actors with strong political desires for things and a lot of power nearly always comply. While Matt Mullenweg is clearly not a rational actor, and clearly is willing to do extremely dumb things despite the advice of council, the other people who work for Automattic (and certainly its investors) are unlikely to be so willing to ignore the order of a federal court. If they do, their lives are going to get worse, not better, and possibly rapidly. As of this writing, the Automattic WP Engine tracker site is still up. (Hopefully some actual attorneys who read HN can correct anything I got wrong. I just haven't seen anyone write this out yet.)

markandrewj 2y ago

As someone who was around before WordPress existed, and witnessed all the proprietary CMS systems of the day, as well as personally building custom CMS systems professionally, it disappoints me to watch this unfold. I used to see WordPress as an example of how open-source can be good business. Being open-source, and comparatively better then other proprietary options at the time, made WordPress an attractive option, and its user base grew rapidly. Blogging was also more popular then, although people still blog. I think as of today there are better options then WordPress, and blogging is not the same as in the past. I think because of peoples history with products like WordPress, many people have gravitated towards static site generators. Early on Automattic seemed like a place I might want to work, but obviously a lot that has changed since WordPress first launched. I can't see myself wanting to work there now, or wanting to use WordPress again. Not to mention I moved on from PHP a long time ago.

xet7 2y ago

Is there any possibility, that he could stop self-sabotage, and continue maintain WordPress, so there would not be a need to migrate 43.7% of all websites from WordPress to different CMS, or different update URLs for everything? But I don't know actually what this is all about, is there any possibility. I hope all the best for him anyway.