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> It seems like drivers did not find the feature compelling and were not renewing. IMO, it's largely because BlueCruise (and all of the similar services) is no

> It seems like drivers did not find the feature compelling and were not renewing. IMO, it's largely because BlueCruise (and all of the similar services) is not sufficiently better than the non-subscription driver assists. I have the option of BlueCruise on my vehicle and it's just not a compelling offer. * It only works on major highways. Beyond actual coverage, major highways are places where the standard driver assists already work extremely well. * It does nothing about traffic around you. You have to be prepared to react. Not much different than driver assist. * It's wickedly expensive. Right now, radar assisted cruise and camera based lane centering eases 95% of my driving fatigue.

logifail 2y ago
> it's just not a compelling offer I drive (and have driven) a fair number of rental cars due to travel, and I have to say I feel that way about many new vehicles in their entirety. So much vehicle tech is at best unimpressive and at worst positively in my way as a driver. > It's wickedly expensive We own two cars, 6 and 10 years old respectively, yet I've never felt less motivated to look at new cars than I do now. Guess our part towards saving the planet may well turn out to be 'driving that existing ICE vehicle for just a little bit longer'...
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  If you look at the lifecycle analysis of ICE cars, burning the fuel is the major contributor. So if you drive an average amount with those cars you're not saving the planet by continuing to drive them. In a well functioning system you'd be selling them on to people who drive very little and are old and set in their ways and replacing them with an EV.
  - logifail 2y ago
    > If you look at the lifecycle analysis of ICE cars, burning the fuel is the major contributor (Genuine question, not whataboutism...) what about the environmental aspects of manufacturing and distributing a vehicle other than CO2 emissions? > old and set in their ways I fear I may be approaching this stage myself! :)
    - Mashimo 2y ago
      EVs have a way higher initial CO2 footprint. The crossover depends on car and where you get the energy from. I think it's often around the 100 000 km mark where an EV gets the smaller footprint. But like I said, many variables factor in.
      - loandbehold 2y ago
        Are you claiming manufacturing an EV emits as much CO2 as driving ICE for 100 000 km? That's really hard to believe, you need to cite your sources.
        barrkel 2y ago
        You will have to factor in the CO2 cost of electrical generation mix. The tradeoff will vary widely depending on where you live.
        calciphus 2y ago
        By that logic, also the CO2 footprint of manufacturing and transporting the fuel for an equivalent ICE vehicle, which is always conveniently left out of such calculations.
        trollbridge 2y ago
        And also the footprint of building more generation stations (big) or building “renewable energy” generation (even bigger), which also conveniently gets left out. The greenest choice most of us can make is an old, used car with reasonable emissions and that’s fuel efficient. Like a 15 year old Civic or Corolla. Or do what a colleague of mine did - he revived a first generation Prius, flashed newer software onto it, and salvaged a battery pack from a newer, wrecked Prius.
        manwe150 2y ago
        As pointed out by other nearby comments, that is not the greenest choice (which is to not drive), nor even the second greenest choice (which is to replace your ICE with a refurbished Prius like your colleague), or even the third greenest choice (which is to buy a new EV), but only barely beats out the worst non-green choices (buying a new ICE) and then only if you pay to make sure the car emissions controls and engine aren't becoming rusty and inefficient. Here's an article explaining: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mythbusting-world-evs-better-buy-new-or-keep-your-old-car https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mythbusting-world-... There are also the caveats you mentioned that the analysis does assume that an EV is actually the greener choice, which is itself a function of a lot of other choices being made green also, such as whether it was constructed and powered with the most environmentally favorable choices of mining and manufacturing, most of which isn't really in the consumers direct control.
  - maerF0x0 2y ago
    In the book Heat Monboit argues the stats show that when someone "greens" their consumption they also increase it. For example switching to "green" energy meant people stopped thinking about conserving. In the specific case of electric vehicles (and many plug in hybrids) luckily they're such an immense improvement that my guess is that they still have a net benefit. But far from the simple efficiency math, and more likely the user will increase their consumption by some meaningful percent.
    - manwe150 2y ago
      I think you mean Jevon's Paradox? Wikipedia claims it has been studied and that the effect is small: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#Cause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#Cause I wonder though if the more significant limitation for most people is the value placed on their time currently, so they seek to minimize travel and commute times (rather than minimizing for fuel costs). And if so, does will the rise of self-driving + EV paradoxically increase the number of miles someone is willing to sit behind the wheel in the coming decade?
    - travisporter 2y ago
      Good point. I think the hopeful next step would be looking at efficiency of EVs, miles per kWh (of course not counting public transport)
    - nothercastle 2y ago
      The most successful marketing campaign in the last 100 was the greening of plastic waste with BS recycling campaigns.
- Shawnj2 2y ago
  As long as your old cars are like Toyota corolla/camry’s and not like giant gas guzzling SUV’s or trucks keeping them on the road is better than buying a new EV IMO. I think the current EV gen is kind of doomed because of the fact the next EV gen is going to have massive QOL features the current one doesn’t and waiting for a more compelling car is worth doing IMO
  - thfuran 2y ago
    >the next EV gen is going to have massive QOL features the current one doesn’t Like what?
    - rcxdude 2y ago
      I think proper V2H/V2G (vehicle to home/grid) is a big one that is very rare at the moment but is probably making a lot of people who could buy an EV at the moment (i.e. have a garage/driveway in a city) hold off until it's more common, because it makes the economics a lot more attractive. (In general, because of cratering manufacturing costs, improving tech, and a still low trust for battery health, being an EV early adopter is an expensive option at the moment because even if an early EV is still at 80% functionality compared to new, the resale value is terrible, and I think this plus the lack of charging infrastructure is a big impediment to adoption growing to become dominant in the mainstream)
      - jcgrillo 2y ago
        I'm not super convinced about the V2H stuff, tbh. I only need backup power at home to keep the heat on when I'm not there. If I'm not there almost certainly my car isn't either. When I am there I can light a candle and run the wood stove to keep the pipes from freezing. So a stationary battery bank for my solar system makes a lot more sense than trying to use my car for that purpose.
        ghaff 2y ago
        And probably a backup generator with a big propane tank is a better solution. I've thought about it over the years and if I was regularly away for long periods in the winter I'd probably have spent the money. As it is, I cross my fingers and generally try not to have long periods away from my house in the winter.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > Guess our part towards saving the planet may well turn out to be 'driving that existing ICE vehicle for just a little bit longer'... Yep, or selling it and buying a more efficient one, so the person buying yours upgrades their less efficient car as well.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  I don't drive, so this is an honest question: > So much vehicle tech is at best unimpressive and at worst positively in my way as a driver. Can you provide some examples? I guess "self-driving" is one.
  - willvarfar 2y ago
    Its not what the public think of 'self driving'. Its not like you can tell the autopilot where you want to go and then sit back, sleep, turn around, do something else. You have to monitor it. So you are basically paying to take legal responsibility for the crashes of a not-quite-ready autopilot whilst still having to keep alert. The moment there is a true self-driving capability, where you can sit back and let the car drive even if you're not sober etc, then it would be wildly popular.
    - trollbridge 2y ago
      Somewhat analogous to letting your 16 year old drive. Quite a bit more stressful than just driving yourself.
      - nprateem 2y ago
        Exactly. My car has adaptive cruise control. In slow traffic, if the car in front comes to a stop, it'll also stop. But what happens if it's turned off? I honestly don't know and don't have the balls to find out, because so far it just keeps getting closer to the car in front. So if I accidentally pause it then drive the same way I would with it enabled, I might(?) rear-end someone. It'd be the height of stupidity if it does just keep rolling forward, but who knows...
        ghaff 2y ago
        When I bought my last car, I was sort of excited about adaptive cruise control and lane keeping. But maybe because most driving I do (which isn't a huge amount) is on pretty busy roads I've sort of avoided really using it.
- taneq 2y ago
  > So much vehicle tech is at best unimpressive and at worst positively in my way as a driver. Honestly, I'm not surprised that new cars aren't breathtakingly awesome. It's been a really rough 5 years for everybody and we're not seeing much genuine light at the end of the tunnel. Everyone's just trying to survive. Hard to do your best work under those circumstances.

logifail 2y ago

> it's just not a compelling offer I drive (and have driven) a fair number of rental cars due to travel, and I have to say I feel that way about many new vehicles in their entirety. So much vehicle tech is at best unimpressive and at worst positively in my way as a driver. > It's wickedly expensive We own two cars, 6 and 10 years old respectively, yet I've never felt less motivated to look at new cars than I do now. Guess our part towards saving the planet may well turn out to be 'driving that existing ICE vehicle for just a little bit longer'...

ZeroGravitas 2y ago
If you look at the lifecycle analysis of ICE cars, burning the fuel is the major contributor. So if you drive an average amount with those cars you're not saving the planet by continuing to drive them. In a well functioning system you'd be selling them on to people who drive very little and are old and set in their ways and replacing them with an EV.
- logifail 2y ago
  > If you look at the lifecycle analysis of ICE cars, burning the fuel is the major contributor (Genuine question, not whataboutism...) what about the environmental aspects of manufacturing and distributing a vehicle other than CO2 emissions? > old and set in their ways I fear I may be approaching this stage myself! :)
  - Mashimo 2y ago
    EVs have a way higher initial CO2 footprint. The crossover depends on car and where you get the energy from. I think it's often around the 100 000 km mark where an EV gets the smaller footprint. But like I said, many variables factor in.
    - loandbehold 2y ago
      Are you claiming manufacturing an EV emits as much CO2 as driving ICE for 100 000 km? That's really hard to believe, you need to cite your sources.
      - barrkel 2y ago
        You will have to factor in the CO2 cost of electrical generation mix. The tradeoff will vary widely depending on where you live.
        calciphus 2y ago
        By that logic, also the CO2 footprint of manufacturing and transporting the fuel for an equivalent ICE vehicle, which is always conveniently left out of such calculations.
        trollbridge 2y ago
        And also the footprint of building more generation stations (big) or building “renewable energy” generation (even bigger), which also conveniently gets left out. The greenest choice most of us can make is an old, used car with reasonable emissions and that’s fuel efficient. Like a 15 year old Civic or Corolla. Or do what a colleague of mine did - he revived a first generation Prius, flashed newer software onto it, and salvaged a battery pack from a newer, wrecked Prius.
        manwe150 2y ago
        As pointed out by other nearby comments, that is not the greenest choice (which is to not drive), nor even the second greenest choice (which is to replace your ICE with a refurbished Prius like your colleague), or even the third greenest choice (which is to buy a new EV), but only barely beats out the worst non-green choices (buying a new ICE) and then only if you pay to make sure the car emissions controls and engine aren't becoming rusty and inefficient. Here's an article explaining: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mythbusting-world-evs-better-buy-new-or-keep-your-old-car https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mythbusting-world-... There are also the caveats you mentioned that the analysis does assume that an EV is actually the greener choice, which is itself a function of a lot of other choices being made green also, such as whether it was constructed and powered with the most environmentally favorable choices of mining and manufacturing, most of which isn't really in the consumers direct control.
- maerF0x0 2y ago
  In the book Heat Monboit argues the stats show that when someone "greens" their consumption they also increase it. For example switching to "green" energy meant people stopped thinking about conserving. In the specific case of electric vehicles (and many plug in hybrids) luckily they're such an immense improvement that my guess is that they still have a net benefit. But far from the simple efficiency math, and more likely the user will increase their consumption by some meaningful percent.
  - manwe150 2y ago
    I think you mean Jevon's Paradox? Wikipedia claims it has been studied and that the effect is small: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#Cause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#Cause I wonder though if the more significant limitation for most people is the value placed on their time currently, so they seek to minimize travel and commute times (rather than minimizing for fuel costs). And if so, does will the rise of self-driving + EV paradoxically increase the number of miles someone is willing to sit behind the wheel in the coming decade?
  - travisporter 2y ago
    Good point. I think the hopeful next step would be looking at efficiency of EVs, miles per kWh (of course not counting public transport)
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    The most successful marketing campaign in the last 100 was the greening of plastic waste with BS recycling campaigns.
Shawnj2 2y ago
As long as your old cars are like Toyota corolla/camry’s and not like giant gas guzzling SUV’s or trucks keeping them on the road is better than buying a new EV IMO. I think the current EV gen is kind of doomed because of the fact the next EV gen is going to have massive QOL features the current one doesn’t and waiting for a more compelling car is worth doing IMO
- thfuran 2y ago
  >the next EV gen is going to have massive QOL features the current one doesn’t Like what?
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    I think proper V2H/V2G (vehicle to home/grid) is a big one that is very rare at the moment but is probably making a lot of people who could buy an EV at the moment (i.e. have a garage/driveway in a city) hold off until it's more common, because it makes the economics a lot more attractive. (In general, because of cratering manufacturing costs, improving tech, and a still low trust for battery health, being an EV early adopter is an expensive option at the moment because even if an early EV is still at 80% functionality compared to new, the resale value is terrible, and I think this plus the lack of charging infrastructure is a big impediment to adoption growing to become dominant in the mainstream)
    - jcgrillo 2y ago
      I'm not super convinced about the V2H stuff, tbh. I only need backup power at home to keep the heat on when I'm not there. If I'm not there almost certainly my car isn't either. When I am there I can light a candle and run the wood stove to keep the pipes from freezing. So a stationary battery bank for my solar system makes a lot more sense than trying to use my car for that purpose.
      - ghaff 2y ago
        And probably a backup generator with a big propane tank is a better solution. I've thought about it over the years and if I was regularly away for long periods in the winter I'd probably have spent the money. As it is, I cross my fingers and generally try not to have long periods away from my house in the winter.
robertlagrant 2y ago
> Guess our part towards saving the planet may well turn out to be 'driving that existing ICE vehicle for just a little bit longer'... Yep, or selling it and buying a more efficient one, so the person buying yours upgrades their less efficient car as well.
throwaway2037 2y ago
I don't drive, so this is an honest question: > So much vehicle tech is at best unimpressive and at worst positively in my way as a driver. Can you provide some examples? I guess "self-driving" is one.
- willvarfar 2y ago
  Its not what the public think of 'self driving'. Its not like you can tell the autopilot where you want to go and then sit back, sleep, turn around, do something else. You have to monitor it. So you are basically paying to take legal responsibility for the crashes of a not-quite-ready autopilot whilst still having to keep alert. The moment there is a true self-driving capability, where you can sit back and let the car drive even if you're not sober etc, then it would be wildly popular.
  - trollbridge 2y ago
    Somewhat analogous to letting your 16 year old drive. Quite a bit more stressful than just driving yourself.
    - nprateem 2y ago
      Exactly. My car has adaptive cruise control. In slow traffic, if the car in front comes to a stop, it'll also stop. But what happens if it's turned off? I honestly don't know and don't have the balls to find out, because so far it just keeps getting closer to the car in front. So if I accidentally pause it then drive the same way I would with it enabled, I might(?) rear-end someone. It'd be the height of stupidity if it does just keep rolling forward, but who knows...
      - ghaff 2y ago
        When I bought my last car, I was sort of excited about adaptive cruise control and lane keeping. But maybe because most driving I do (which isn't a huge amount) is on pretty busy roads I've sort of avoided really using it.
taneq 2y ago
> So much vehicle tech is at best unimpressive and at worst positively in my way as a driver. Honestly, I'm not surprised that new cars aren't breathtakingly awesome. It's been a really rough 5 years for everybody and we're not seeing much genuine light at the end of the tunnel. Everyone's just trying to survive. Hard to do your best work under those circumstances.