4 ms·

Gang and organized crime-related shootings are very bad to have, most developed countries don't have them either.

by JCharante 2y ago

Kye 2y ago
It's always weird to me when people want to exclude them from stats.
- seanw444 2y ago
  Because it paints the image that normal innocent people are getting shot up in schools and markets more often than they really are, primarily to push the narrative that guns need to be taken from people who have committed no crimes, to stop crime. In reality, the majority of shootings are done by people who will find a way to kill someone, one way or the other. Whether it be with a legally-purchased gun, an illegally-purchased gun, a homemade gun, a knife, a homemade shank, a baseball bat, a vehicle.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    The majority of shootings are actually gun owners or their family members killing themselves. 60% or so.
    - seanw444 2y ago
      True, let me revise. The majority of "shootings" are suicides, which can be carried out in all manner of ways. The second largest contributors are gangs and organized crime. The smallest, by far, is what people actually picture in their mind when they hear "mass shooting".
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        Guns are an easy way to do it with a higher success rate. It is really hard to stab yourself to death even though it’s possible, for example. Who knows what would happen in Korea if guns were legal.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Suicide makes up 55% of gun deaths, and the US is literally the only country in the world that counts these as gun violence. The remainder is primarily gang violence. Shooting of non-gang affiliated people is extremely rare, and noteworthy because of this rarity. Murder-suicides are also rare, about 1% of suicides. Most discussion and statistics about gun violence intentionally obfuscates these facts. We could speculate about the motivations why, but it is largely irrelevant.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        Do you have a source on gang violence? Of the numbers I've seen, in total gun related dealths are evenly split between suicide and homicide. Of the homicides, ~10-50% are gang related (depending on source) and ~50% are drug-related (including overlap with gang). F.ex. intimate partner violence being another major homicide category.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Not off-hand. Last time I looked into it, tagging homicide associations was a pretty messy business. I think drug related gun homicides and gang homicides two side to the same coin. I've seen numbers on the order of 10% for intimate gun partner homicide. The percent is much higher for women, but women are a minority of gun homicide victims overall.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        I looked at a variety of sources for the above numbers, but it certainly didn't seem like gang- or drug-specific associations drove the majority of non-suicide gun deaths. A decent chunk, but there are other reasons. One surprising / not surprising other fact: ~50-75% of gun deaths involve alcohol and ~25% meth.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Would be curious to see what you are looking at too. Many deaths have no attribution as well, which could well fall into drug or gang.
  - dTal 2y ago
    >normal innocent people are getting shot up in schools and markets [often] >the majority of shootings are done by people who will find a way to kill someone, one way or the other Both of these things can be true. You can have a rampant gang violence problem, and also a rampant school shooting problem. The fact that the gang problem is worse doesn't make the school shooting problem okay, and to use this to argue against gun control is... odd.
    - seanw444 2y ago
      The point is that gun control isn't solving anything but eliminating what many Americans perceive as a fundamental right, because bad people do bad things with neutral items. You can stab dozens of people mortally before you're put down. You can mow a crowd of people down with your vehicle. But I carry a gun every day out of the possibility that someone might do one of those things to me, or my loved ones. Banning a right is the worst bandaid "fix" possible, on top of what is a much more fundamental problem that can't be solved by merely stopping one of its symptoms. Our people are sick in multiple ways. Let's fix that.
      - throwaway48476 2y ago
        They're authoritarians, they don't want to take away guns from the government, only the citizens.
        JCharante 2y ago
        A bit late to the party, but yes. I'd rather live in safety than with civil liberties.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Because it's mostly business dispute resolution and it dominates the stats if you include it. It's not like you can ask the courts to use state violence on the guy that shorted you come coke or to kick that other gang's dealer off your turf because he's already been warned once. Illegal industry has to DIY it. To include it would be like compiling a list of extortion and including government fines and civil judgements. It dominates the stats so much that if you include it and evaluate it you're not actually looking at the thing you want to be looking at, you're measuring by proxy the size of something else. You'll wind up deriving conclusions like "most mass shooters are low level gang members" or "the threatening party in most extortion is the state" that is nominally true but also absurd doublespeak not actually congruent with the meaning of those words.
- pie420 2y ago
  Why? I'm not in a gang or a mob, so i am safe from their silly little squabbles. I don't care how many gang members kill each other. I also don't care how many people die in DRC civil wars, because I am not in the DRC. I don't care about people dying on other planets and in different galaxies.
  - JCharante 2y ago
    Ah yes, because no one innocent has ever died from gang on gang violence, and nobody has ever been wrongfully identified as a gang member and been killed. I don't personally care about what's going on in the DRC either, but I do care about the entire city being safe as I don't want to die from accidentally taking a left turn.
    - CRConrad 2y ago
      > I don't personally care about what's going on in the DRC either, but I do care about the entire city being safe The Democratic Republic of Congo is a country, not a city.
User23 2y ago
Well, they're working on that[1]. [1] https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/10/15/swedens-homicide-rate-linked-to-gang-warfare-is-one-of-the-highest-in-europe https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/10/15/swedens-homici...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Gang and organized crime-related shootings are very bad to have, most developed countries don't have them either.

Kye 2y ago

It's always weird to me when people want to exclude them from stats.

seanw444 2y ago
Because it paints the image that normal innocent people are getting shot up in schools and markets more often than they really are, primarily to push the narrative that guns need to be taken from people who have committed no crimes, to stop crime. In reality, the majority of shootings are done by people who will find a way to kill someone, one way or the other. Whether it be with a legally-purchased gun, an illegally-purchased gun, a homemade gun, a knife, a homemade shank, a baseball bat, a vehicle.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  The majority of shootings are actually gun owners or their family members killing themselves. 60% or so.
  - seanw444 2y ago
    True, let me revise. The majority of "shootings" are suicides, which can be carried out in all manner of ways. The second largest contributors are gangs and organized crime. The smallest, by far, is what people actually picture in their mind when they hear "mass shooting".
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      Guns are an easy way to do it with a higher success rate. It is really hard to stab yourself to death even though it’s possible, for example. Who knows what would happen in Korea if guns were legal.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Suicide makes up 55% of gun deaths, and the US is literally the only country in the world that counts these as gun violence. The remainder is primarily gang violence. Shooting of non-gang affiliated people is extremely rare, and noteworthy because of this rarity. Murder-suicides are also rare, about 1% of suicides. Most discussion and statistics about gun violence intentionally obfuscates these facts. We could speculate about the motivations why, but it is largely irrelevant.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Do you have a source on gang violence? Of the numbers I've seen, in total gun related dealths are evenly split between suicide and homicide. Of the homicides, ~10-50% are gang related (depending on source) and ~50% are drug-related (including overlap with gang). F.ex. intimate partner violence being another major homicide category.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Not off-hand. Last time I looked into it, tagging homicide associations was a pretty messy business. I think drug related gun homicides and gang homicides two side to the same coin. I've seen numbers on the order of 10% for intimate gun partner homicide. The percent is much higher for women, but women are a minority of gun homicide victims overall.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        I looked at a variety of sources for the above numbers, but it certainly didn't seem like gang- or drug-specific associations drove the majority of non-suicide gun deaths. A decent chunk, but there are other reasons. One surprising / not surprising other fact: ~50-75% of gun deaths involve alcohol and ~25% meth.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Would be curious to see what you are looking at too. Many deaths have no attribution as well, which could well fall into drug or gang.
- dTal 2y ago
  >normal innocent people are getting shot up in schools and markets [often] >the majority of shootings are done by people who will find a way to kill someone, one way or the other Both of these things can be true. You can have a rampant gang violence problem, and also a rampant school shooting problem. The fact that the gang problem is worse doesn't make the school shooting problem okay, and to use this to argue against gun control is... odd.
  - seanw444 2y ago
    The point is that gun control isn't solving anything but eliminating what many Americans perceive as a fundamental right, because bad people do bad things with neutral items. You can stab dozens of people mortally before you're put down. You can mow a crowd of people down with your vehicle. But I carry a gun every day out of the possibility that someone might do one of those things to me, or my loved ones. Banning a right is the worst bandaid "fix" possible, on top of what is a much more fundamental problem that can't be solved by merely stopping one of its symptoms. Our people are sick in multiple ways. Let's fix that.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      They're authoritarians, they don't want to take away guns from the government, only the citizens.
      - JCharante 2y ago
        A bit late to the party, but yes. I'd rather live in safety than with civil liberties.
potato3732842 2y ago
Because it's mostly business dispute resolution and it dominates the stats if you include it. It's not like you can ask the courts to use state violence on the guy that shorted you come coke or to kick that other gang's dealer off your turf because he's already been warned once. Illegal industry has to DIY it. To include it would be like compiling a list of extortion and including government fines and civil judgements. It dominates the stats so much that if you include it and evaluate it you're not actually looking at the thing you want to be looking at, you're measuring by proxy the size of something else. You'll wind up deriving conclusions like "most mass shooters are low level gang members" or "the threatening party in most extortion is the state" that is nominally true but also absurd doublespeak not actually congruent with the meaning of those words.
pie420 2y ago
Why? I'm not in a gang or a mob, so i am safe from their silly little squabbles. I don't care how many gang members kill each other. I also don't care how many people die in DRC civil wars, because I am not in the DRC. I don't care about people dying on other planets and in different galaxies.
- JCharante 2y ago
  Ah yes, because no one innocent has ever died from gang on gang violence, and nobody has ever been wrongfully identified as a gang member and been killed. I don't personally care about what's going on in the DRC either, but I do care about the entire city being safe as I don't want to die from accidentally taking a left turn.
  - CRConrad 2y ago
    > I don't personally care about what's going on in the DRC either, but I do care about the entire city being safe The Democratic Republic of Congo is a country, not a city.

User23 2y ago

Well, they're working on that[1]. [1] https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/10/15/swedens-homicide-rate-linked-to-gang-warfare-is-one-of-the-highest-in-europe https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/10/15/swedens-homici...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]