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I doubt this is real. The New York Times mentions that he comes from a prosperous family - seems incongruous with his mother lacking healthcare desperately. ht

I doubt this is real. The New York Times mentions that he comes from a prosperous family - seems incongruous with his mother lacking healthcare desperately. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/09/nyregion/who-is-luigi-mangione.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/09/nyregion/who-is-luigi-man...

Blackthorn 2y ago
Joe Biden, the vice president of the United States at the time, was seriously struggling with healthcare costs. Prosperous families can quickly become unprosperous from healthcare in this country.
SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago
I would buy that a wealthy person would have the anger and the resources to learn how to stalk, make a plan, use a weapon. Poverty is a drain on your mental capacity for nearly everything else besides survival. Also I don’t doubt that his mother would lack healthcare desperately even when wealthy. Women in pain are one the biggest demographics of denied healthcare. Even extremely wealthy, well-connected women.
- burningChrome 2y ago
  So instead of using her money to find care elsewhere with a different company or even in a different country, he just decided to murder the CEO of the company that denied his coverage? How absolutely insane does that sound? My buddy was a pro hockey player. He retired and a few years later, he blew out his knee. He didn't have insurance and was in a lot of pain every day. He knew he couldn't afford a 25K bill for surgery so he got on a plane, flew to Argentina, got his surgery done, stayed for two weeks and flew back. The whole ordeal cost him around 8K for the whole deal. Instead of plotting to kill the CEO of some healthcare company, he found a solution to his problem instead. This is the difference between this guy and thousands of other people who are in chronic pain. Some smoke weed, some find treatments in other countries, some find homeopathic remedies and many other combinations therein. They don't just go off the deep end and plot to murder someone because they felt so wronged by a health care company. What has he accomplished by doing what he did? Nothing. There's already been a video of the new CEO to employees about how they intend to stay the path of denying necessary treatments and expenditures. All of that pent up hate and anger and instead of channeling that into doing something positive for himself and his mother, he just took out on the CEO of a company instead.
  - xcrunner529 2y ago
    So you acknowledge a problem and think it’s perfectly acceptable to have our healthcare broken and using some other country’s resources is an ok substitute? Laughable. And this isn’t even getting into all of the denied cases under the direction of this CEO for actual insurance that is supposed to cover you. Kids not getting cancer meds. Give me a break.
  - computerthings 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - FactKnower69 2y ago
    >Instead of plotting to kill the CEO of some healthcare company, he found a solution to his problem instead. invoking "bootstraps" unironically in this exact, specific context is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever, ever seen
  - SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago
    How does your buddy feel about the shooter, given his experience with the medical system? Would he approve of you using him as an example of why an elderly woman with a severe, largely untreated nervous system chronic illness, which cannot be solved by any one procedure domestically or abroad, should just fix herself somehow? This reads very “I have black a black friend, so I can speak on race issues”.
    - burningChrome 2y ago
      >> How does your buddy feel about the shooter, given his experience with the medical system? He's already said he would never support what he did, regardless of what happened to him or how he was treated. >> Would he approve of you using him as an example of why an elderly woman with a severe, largely untreated nervous system chronic illness, which cannot be solved by any one procedure domestically or abroad, should just fix herself somehow? He's already told multiple people in multiple conversations I've been around him that he felt compelled to leave the country to get treatment because the system is so broke here. I don't need his approval or permission to use his experience. Its been widely reported the shooters family is wealthy. With such financial resources, both the shooter and his mom could've easily sought treatment elsewhere, but did not. Apparently people don't like the idea that life is hard and sometimes caring for your loved ones isn't easy, is time consuming and takes a lot of energy to endure. Its clear the shooter decided he didn't have the constitution to do something different and instead of taking the decision process out of UHC's hands and do something himself to help his family, he merely acquiesced to what UHC was doing until he decided he needed to murder the CEO of the company. >> This reads very “I have black a black friend, so I can speak on race issues”. "Those who preach about tolerance and acceptance rarely, if ever, practice it themselves." Thanks for confirming this is your level of discourse.
goodluckchuck 2y ago
The underlying point of the manifesto is that insurers have corrupted medicine itself. Regardless of whether the care would be covered, the doctors were trained to diagnose and treat in a way that isn’t designed to cure, but to “care.” Sure, she had visits and specialists and diagnoses and it was largely incompetent, because incompetent doctors are cheap in a system where inaction has no real consequence.
- nradov 2y ago
  Which is total nonsense. There is certainly plenty of room for improvement in the healthcare system. But the average competence level of doctors is higher now than ever before. If you think we have problems now than look how many quacks there were a century ago, before health insurance even really existed.
  - goodluckchuck 2y ago
    I think both views are partially right. Yes, medicine has advanced. There are many areas where the treatments simply didn’t exist, even 20 years ago. There are different people involved with different incentives. However, that doesn’t mean that insurance hasn’t also had a negative effect on quality of care. The example that comes to mind the standard of care for back injuries. Treatment begins maybe with an x-ray to check for fractures, but then NSAIDs. If that doesn’t work, then physical therapy a couple times a week for a few weeks. Then patients may get an MRI a couple months later… after it’s too late to see bruising to the spinal cord. So, there’s almost never direct evidence that a herniation is work-related, and thus it isn’t covered by workers compensation. The path of escalation is designed to reduce costs, but starting with an MRI on day one is decidedly better for patient outcomes.
    - nradov 2y ago
      Regardless of insurance issues, are there actually evidence-based medicine guidelines to support an immediate MRI for back injuries? By injury do you mean some kind of specific trauma, or any serious back pain regardless of suspected cause? Many patients do recover with OTC analgesics, proper physical therapy, and time. https://peterattiamd.com/stuartmcgill/ https://peterattiamd.com/stuartmcgill/ What you'll find with imaging for those structures is that many patients appear to have abnormalities or apparent pathologies, including patients who don't have any pain. So while MRI can be helpful for diagnosis and treatment it isn't necessarily definitive. There is always going to be a resource allocation and care rationing issue with expensive services like MRI. Other countries with socialized healthcare often have long queues for non-emergency MRIs. In fact, we often see affluent Canadians coming to the USA as medical tourists to skip the queues.
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Blackthorn 2y ago

Joe Biden, the vice president of the United States at the time, was seriously struggling with healthcare costs. Prosperous families can quickly become unprosperous from healthcare in this country.

SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago

I would buy that a wealthy person would have the anger and the resources to learn how to stalk, make a plan, use a weapon. Poverty is a drain on your mental capacity for nearly everything else besides survival. Also I don’t doubt that his mother would lack healthcare desperately even when wealthy. Women in pain are one the biggest demographics of denied healthcare. Even extremely wealthy, well-connected women.

burningChrome 2y ago
So instead of using her money to find care elsewhere with a different company or even in a different country, he just decided to murder the CEO of the company that denied his coverage? How absolutely insane does that sound? My buddy was a pro hockey player. He retired and a few years later, he blew out his knee. He didn't have insurance and was in a lot of pain every day. He knew he couldn't afford a 25K bill for surgery so he got on a plane, flew to Argentina, got his surgery done, stayed for two weeks and flew back. The whole ordeal cost him around 8K for the whole deal. Instead of plotting to kill the CEO of some healthcare company, he found a solution to his problem instead. This is the difference between this guy and thousands of other people who are in chronic pain. Some smoke weed, some find treatments in other countries, some find homeopathic remedies and many other combinations therein. They don't just go off the deep end and plot to murder someone because they felt so wronged by a health care company. What has he accomplished by doing what he did? Nothing. There's already been a video of the new CEO to employees about how they intend to stay the path of denying necessary treatments and expenditures. All of that pent up hate and anger and instead of channeling that into doing something positive for himself and his mother, he just took out on the CEO of a company instead.
- xcrunner529 2y ago
  So you acknowledge a problem and think it’s perfectly acceptable to have our healthcare broken and using some other country’s resources is an ok substitute? Laughable. And this isn’t even getting into all of the denied cases under the direction of this CEO for actual insurance that is supposed to cover you. Kids not getting cancer meds. Give me a break.
- computerthings 2y ago
  [flagged]
- FactKnower69 2y ago
  >Instead of plotting to kill the CEO of some healthcare company, he found a solution to his problem instead. invoking "bootstraps" unironically in this exact, specific context is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever, ever seen
- SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago
  How does your buddy feel about the shooter, given his experience with the medical system? Would he approve of you using him as an example of why an elderly woman with a severe, largely untreated nervous system chronic illness, which cannot be solved by any one procedure domestically or abroad, should just fix herself somehow? This reads very “I have black a black friend, so I can speak on race issues”.
  - burningChrome 2y ago
    >> How does your buddy feel about the shooter, given his experience with the medical system? He's already said he would never support what he did, regardless of what happened to him or how he was treated. >> Would he approve of you using him as an example of why an elderly woman with a severe, largely untreated nervous system chronic illness, which cannot be solved by any one procedure domestically or abroad, should just fix herself somehow? He's already told multiple people in multiple conversations I've been around him that he felt compelled to leave the country to get treatment because the system is so broke here. I don't need his approval or permission to use his experience. Its been widely reported the shooters family is wealthy. With such financial resources, both the shooter and his mom could've easily sought treatment elsewhere, but did not. Apparently people don't like the idea that life is hard and sometimes caring for your loved ones isn't easy, is time consuming and takes a lot of energy to endure. Its clear the shooter decided he didn't have the constitution to do something different and instead of taking the decision process out of UHC's hands and do something himself to help his family, he merely acquiesced to what UHC was doing until he decided he needed to murder the CEO of the company. >> This reads very “I have black a black friend, so I can speak on race issues”. "Those who preach about tolerance and acceptance rarely, if ever, practice it themselves." Thanks for confirming this is your level of discourse.

goodluckchuck 2y ago

The underlying point of the manifesto is that insurers have corrupted medicine itself. Regardless of whether the care would be covered, the doctors were trained to diagnose and treat in a way that isn’t designed to cure, but to “care.” Sure, she had visits and specialists and diagnoses and it was largely incompetent, because incompetent doctors are cheap in a system where inaction has no real consequence.

nradov 2y ago
Which is total nonsense. There is certainly plenty of room for improvement in the healthcare system. But the average competence level of doctors is higher now than ever before. If you think we have problems now than look how many quacks there were a century ago, before health insurance even really existed.
- goodluckchuck 2y ago
  I think both views are partially right. Yes, medicine has advanced. There are many areas where the treatments simply didn’t exist, even 20 years ago. There are different people involved with different incentives. However, that doesn’t mean that insurance hasn’t also had a negative effect on quality of care. The example that comes to mind the standard of care for back injuries. Treatment begins maybe with an x-ray to check for fractures, but then NSAIDs. If that doesn’t work, then physical therapy a couple times a week for a few weeks. Then patients may get an MRI a couple months later… after it’s too late to see bruising to the spinal cord. So, there’s almost never direct evidence that a herniation is work-related, and thus it isn’t covered by workers compensation. The path of escalation is designed to reduce costs, but starting with an MRI on day one is decidedly better for patient outcomes.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Regardless of insurance issues, are there actually evidence-based medicine guidelines to support an immediate MRI for back injuries? By injury do you mean some kind of specific trauma, or any serious back pain regardless of suspected cause? Many patients do recover with OTC analgesics, proper physical therapy, and time. https://peterattiamd.com/stuartmcgill/ https://peterattiamd.com/stuartmcgill/ What you'll find with imaging for those structures is that many patients appear to have abnormalities or apparent pathologies, including patients who don't have any pain. So while MRI can be helpful for diagnosis and treatment it isn't necessarily definitive. There is always going to be a resource allocation and care rationing issue with expensive services like MRI. Other countries with socialized healthcare often have long queues for non-emergency MRIs. In fact, we often see affluent Canadians coming to the USA as medical tourists to skip the queues.

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