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Looks like China is attempting a hybrid approach. Free market with the government intervening whenever and wherever it feels like. They still get some optimiza

Looks like China is attempting a hybrid approach. Free market with the government intervening whenever and wherever it feels like. They still get some optimization and some otherwise-impossible-projects. I'd say the jury is still out on this strategy.

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
> Looks like China is attempting a hybrid approach. Free market with the government intervening whenever and wherever it feels like. A caveat I'd add is that the Chinese government is subjective to the party. China's accomplishments are significant but they tend to be secondary to the political wellbeing of the CCP. That wellbeing is secured though the harsh and thorough quashing of dissent. I'd criticize China but CCP's most repressive aspects seem to be finding widespread appeal here in the US.
- ffsm8 2y ago
  > I'd criticize China but CCP's most repressive aspects seem to be finding widespread appeal here in the US. And so does Russia, which is another effective repressive dictatorship. From my perspective, they're just exceptionally adapt at pushing their propaganda abroad. Historically, the USA was the only one doing that, but it's no longer the only player. (To be clear, I meant spreading propaganda abroad. The USA is at least currently not a repressive dictatorship. And I doubt it will become so before I die.)
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
vkou 2y ago
It's real wealth and productivity growth has dramatically outpaced peer nations over the last 40 years. How much longer will the jury be out? Will it come back in my lifetime?
- svara 2y ago
  Yeah, it's going to come out in the next 10 years or so, 20 at most. The question is whether the Chinese economy will take a similar trajectory now to the Japanese one in the late eighties and through the nineties, with a period of extreme growth followed by mostly stagnation. It could very well be that the Chinese model is good at catch-up growth so to speak, up to the level of an advanced economy. I agree with the op that the jury is out on this and it might go different ways.
- chii 2y ago
  > productivity growth has dramatically outpaced peer nations over the last 40 years. and yet, are the citizens getting their fair share of said productivity growth? Or has it been obsorbed by the CCP, in which the wealth is then allocated to something that said citizen would not have chosen to allocate to?
  - vkou 2y ago
    Given that hundreds of millions of people living in it had to go outside to shit in an outhouse four decades ago, but are now living first-world and nearly first-world lifestyles, you tell me if any of that wealth made it to them. People tolerate the CCP because of the clear material gains they have seen in their lives. If some strongman authoritarian stood with a megaphone on Main Street and credibly promised Americans one tenth of that gain in prosperity, they'd elect him dictator for life.
    - matthewdgreen 2y ago
      The same basic rags-to-richest pattern was true for most US citizens a century ago, and no we're now objectively some of the richest people in the world. But despite this progress, US politics does not indicate that the US populace is deeply satisfied. Which leads to the real question: will the CCP still be as popular when material progress plateaus?
      - chii 2y ago
        > will the CCP still be as popular when material progress plateaus? they know they won't be - people's demand continues to grow, and not just material wants, but "spiritual" wants (aka, they want more representation in the political system to make decisions). Of course, this only manifests after some material wealth threshold has been reached. It's also why i conspiratorially believe that the CCP is deliberately ensuring chinese yuan is continuously debased, and kept artificially low. It ensures that the people's wealth in general is not high enough to reach that threshold i mentioned above.

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago

> Looks like China is attempting a hybrid approach. Free market with the government intervening whenever and wherever it feels like. A caveat I'd add is that the Chinese government is subjective to the party. China's accomplishments are significant but they tend to be secondary to the political wellbeing of the CCP. That wellbeing is secured though the harsh and thorough quashing of dissent. I'd criticize China but CCP's most repressive aspects seem to be finding widespread appeal here in the US.

ffsm8 2y ago
> I'd criticize China but CCP's most repressive aspects seem to be finding widespread appeal here in the US. And so does Russia, which is another effective repressive dictatorship. From my perspective, they're just exceptionally adapt at pushing their propaganda abroad. Historically, the USA was the only one doing that, but it's no longer the only player. (To be clear, I meant spreading propaganda abroad. The USA is at least currently not a repressive dictatorship. And I doubt it will become so before I die.)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

vkou 2y ago

It's real wealth and productivity growth has dramatically outpaced peer nations over the last 40 years. How much longer will the jury be out? Will it come back in my lifetime?

svara 2y ago
Yeah, it's going to come out in the next 10 years or so, 20 at most. The question is whether the Chinese economy will take a similar trajectory now to the Japanese one in the late eighties and through the nineties, with a period of extreme growth followed by mostly stagnation. It could very well be that the Chinese model is good at catch-up growth so to speak, up to the level of an advanced economy. I agree with the op that the jury is out on this and it might go different ways.
chii 2y ago
> productivity growth has dramatically outpaced peer nations over the last 40 years. and yet, are the citizens getting their fair share of said productivity growth? Or has it been obsorbed by the CCP, in which the wealth is then allocated to something that said citizen would not have chosen to allocate to?
- vkou 2y ago
  Given that hundreds of millions of people living in it had to go outside to shit in an outhouse four decades ago, but are now living first-world and nearly first-world lifestyles, you tell me if any of that wealth made it to them. People tolerate the CCP because of the clear material gains they have seen in their lives. If some strongman authoritarian stood with a megaphone on Main Street and credibly promised Americans one tenth of that gain in prosperity, they'd elect him dictator for life.
  - matthewdgreen 2y ago
    The same basic rags-to-richest pattern was true for most US citizens a century ago, and no we're now objectively some of the richest people in the world. But despite this progress, US politics does not indicate that the US populace is deeply satisfied. Which leads to the real question: will the CCP still be as popular when material progress plateaus?
    - chii 2y ago
      > will the CCP still be as popular when material progress plateaus? they know they won't be - people's demand continues to grow, and not just material wants, but "spiritual" wants (aka, they want more representation in the political system to make decisions). Of course, this only manifests after some material wealth threshold has been reached. It's also why i conspiratorially believe that the CCP is deliberately ensuring chinese yuan is continuously debased, and kept artificially low. It ensures that the people's wealth in general is not high enough to reach that threshold i mentioned above.