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I never really understood why Kyle was so confused about the negative reactions. For someone who tried to be so in tune with people's feelings, he seemed to be

I never really understood why Kyle was so confused about the negative reactions. For someone who tried to be so in tune with people's feelings, he seemed to be missing something incredibly obvious: violation of expectation. Yes, when you're in public you have no legal expectation of privacy. However, when you're using a computer at an Apple store, you're also not expecting that the webcam is snapping photos of you that will be posted online. What he misses entirely is that what constitutes "legal" is not entirely congruent with social norms. Especially as it relates to what will happen to us in public. Legality defines the hard boundaries of our social expectations. We normally set those boundaries at a point where someone is "harmed". The broad social contract is that we won't trample all over each other, physically or emotionally, so we establish laws at the boundaries. Cross the boundary and you face punishment. For example, it's not illegal to take photos of people on the street, yet US society has a love-hate relationship with the paparazzi. They're not breaking the law, but there are plenty of people who... uh... strongly dislike them. Kyle crossed over in to the same territory. Not illegal, but definitely hanging out on the fringes of socially acceptably behavior.

hollerith 14y ago
Yeah, Kyle seems to be missing some sort of social intelligence that most people possess -- or maybe career incentives make him choose to ignore or rationalize away what his social intelligence is telling him about how people are going to react. EDIT: removed sentence that probably overstepped HN norms around meanness.
- apitaru 14y ago
  [edit: retracted as per parent request]
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - hollerith 14y ago
    You're right. Offending sentence deleted from grandparent. Although I understand that you are under no social or ethical obligation to do so, I would appreciate your deleting your quote of the sentence.
beernutz 14y ago
Though as was noted, we subconsciously KNOW we are being recorded by security cameras. Where is the difference? I find the project to be unsettling and interesting at the same time. It is interesting to be able to turn the recording results back over to the public and draw some conclusions from them. For instance, there was a comment worrying about "the computer" de-socializing us as a species. It seems to me that a "stone face" is just the default expression when we are not directly conveying non-verbal information. How often do you think you make faces during deep sleep? Do people normally smile at things they are considering buying? This is a genuine question. I can't remember smiling at an inanimate object i was thinking of purchasing. That being said, i DO smile and laugh or cringe at times while reading a book on a computer, or watching a video, so maybe there ARE times?
- bradleyland 14y ago
  > Though as was noted, we subconsciously KNOW we are being recorded by security cameras. Where is the difference? Expectation. I expect that security cameras record me. I do not expect that the recordings will be posted on the internet. I do expect that whoever is recording them will take some reasonable measures to secure their contents. Those are just my expectations. There's no law against violating these expectations, but can't we all agree that the world is a more pleasant place when we respect others' expectations and avoid trampling on them where possible?
  - ktizo 14y ago
    I expect that security cameras record me. I do not expect that the recordings will be posted on the internet. Unfortunately, reality is messy and your expectations are somewhat obsolete on this one. http://www.opentopia.com/hiddencam.php http://www.opentopia.com/hiddencam.php
    - bradleyland 14y ago
      My expectations are not obsolete. There's a big difference between public web cams, in-store security cameras, and the web cam on a MacBook at an Apple Store. This is a really good illustration of just how out of touch hackers can be. Just because you found what you believe to be an exception does not mean that everyone's expectations are invalid.
ctdonath 14y ago
No different than if he had walked into the store, stood across the table from someone looking at a computer, and stared into their eyes. That would freak most people out. There would be complaints, and he'd be escorted out & told to not return. Legal? yes, but only because we'd rather not have laws applying the police power of the state against nigh unto every conceivable human interaction however defined.
- BHSPitMonkey 14y ago
  Not only is that not "no different", it's not even close. Nobody expects that if you stare at them, photos of them will start appearing on a web server as part of an art exhibition (or in any tangible form other than a person's memory, for that matter).
  - ctdonath 14y ago
    Fine. "no less" than, in answer to those (him) trying to spin it as something perfectly legal/acceptable which nobody should be concerned/outraged/surprised about. If staring at strangers in stores will get you thrown off the premises, how much more so when staring at thousands of strangers and publishing their reactions?
  - nitid_name 14y ago
    They will, once (if?) google goggles gets off the ground.
epoxyhockey 14y ago
when you're using a computer at an Apple store, you're also not expecting that the webcam is snapping photos of you that will be posted online Really?? Over the years, I've become conditioned to assume that if I see any kind of camera lens pointing in my general direction, I am being recorded and that data is going somewhere. I think what's not congruent with social norms is that people still assume that cameras are turned off and aren't recording them & being saved somewhere. I also don't think we're done discussing this topic.. when people start wearing Google glasses everywhere, will everyone finally admit to themselves that they are being recorded almost all the time?
- bradleyland 14y ago
  > I think what's not congruent with social norms is that people still assume that cameras are turned off and aren't recording them & being saved somewhere. No, people assume that security cameras will be used for their intended purpose. Our expectations are guided by context. The camera is the tip of the iceberg. Behind it is a whole set of intentions. What it will record, who will view it, and what will be done with that recording. The fact that it's a security camera provides implied answers to all of the "what, who, why" questions. The rules of these contexts aren't written down in any rule book, because if we did that, we'd spend our whole lives writing out rule books rather than living. I'm not suggesting that what Kyle did should be illegal. No one was harmed. Some people might have felt uncomfortable, but no one was harmed. I am saying that we should be free to dislike him for it. He won't be harmed, but it might make him feel a little uncomfortable. Then again, maybe it won't.
  - epoxyhockey 14y ago
    I understand. I guess I feel that I can't tell which cameras are security cameras anymore. Do they have to be mounted on a ceiling in a corner with a tinted dome? EDIT: If I install Prey on my PC, does my PC camera then qualify as a security camera? Some people might have felt uncomfortable Art is supposed to provoke an emotional response, be it positive or negative. I love it when people walk up to a painting a say something like "This painting looks very angry. I don't like it at all." That's exactly what art is about and only people who are comfortable with being uncomfortable will fully appreciate it.
joe_the_user 14y ago
Last I heard computer intrusion was felony with broad conditions that can be met fairly easily - when you use a computer without permission or when you overstep the implicit or explicit permission you have to use said computer (apologies if I'm wrong but didn't he install his app without explicit permission?). Thus I wouldn't be at all certain that the artist here hasn't gone over the lines of legality. I'm hardly a fan of Apple policies in general but it seems to me that here that sending the Secret Service after this guy is a both legal and appropriate act. I disagree with the parent's claim that legal boundaries are the hard boundaries. Many legal boundaries are extraordinarily fuzzy, often to the detriment of civil liberties ("disorderly conduct" is a real crime for example). Oddly enough, here is a situation where a somewhat fuzzy law seems somewhat appropriate.
- DigitalJack 14y ago
  My understanding was that he got permission from an employee of the store to install the app, and explained what it was for as well.
  - joe_the_user 14y ago
    I reread the article before posting. I believe he only mentions getting permission to photograph. It seems that he took at as a permission to install an app that would photograph. Maybe there was something I missed. If so, show me a quote.
    - jere 14y ago
      Agreed. I doubt he was seriously confused about people's expectations. It seems like he's just trying to act innocent after the fact. "Oh I asked permission to do something tangentially related to my project and parts of the project might have even been legal!" Or maybe I'm wrong and after years of relinquishing your own privacy, you simply have no respect for the privacy of others.
  - othermaciej 14y ago
    His lengthy post doesn't mention asking permission to install the app or explaining what it was for to a store employee. Where does your understanding come from?
Shoomz 14y ago
I bounce back and forth on this line thinking that Kyle, while not aware of his social abnormalities, is helping or hurting society. By having someone look at "us" all differently he sheds an interesting light on the individual, but it also is unnerving and crosses boundaries that we would never have thought someone could so easily broach. It is one of the problems with being too close to any subject you're working with (art, a patient, a paper, a project): you get desensitized to anything odd about 'it', but others are just experiencing the phenomena for the first time.
jamesmiller5 14y ago
"For example, it's not illegal to take photos of people on the street, yet US society has a love-hate relationship with the paparazzi. They're not breaking the law, but there are plenty of people who... uh... strongly dislike them. Kyle crossed over in to the same territory." I think the motivations are different here, although the acts are similar the reasons are not.

hollerith 14y ago

Yeah, Kyle seems to be missing some sort of social intelligence that most people possess -- or maybe career incentives make him choose to ignore or rationalize away what his social intelligence is telling him about how people are going to react. EDIT: removed sentence that probably overstepped HN norms around meanness.

apitaru 14y ago
[edit: retracted as per parent request]
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- hollerith 14y ago
  You're right. Offending sentence deleted from grandparent. Although I understand that you are under no social or ethical obligation to do so, I would appreciate your deleting your quote of the sentence.

beernutz 14y ago

Though as was noted, we subconsciously KNOW we are being recorded by security cameras. Where is the difference? I find the project to be unsettling and interesting at the same time. It is interesting to be able to turn the recording results back over to the public and draw some conclusions from them. For instance, there was a comment worrying about "the computer" de-socializing us as a species. It seems to me that a "stone face" is just the default expression when we are not directly conveying non-verbal information. How often do you think you make faces during deep sleep? Do people normally smile at things they are considering buying? This is a genuine question. I can't remember smiling at an inanimate object i was thinking of purchasing. That being said, i DO smile and laugh or cringe at times while reading a book on a computer, or watching a video, so maybe there ARE times?

bradleyland 14y ago
> Though as was noted, we subconsciously KNOW we are being recorded by security cameras. Where is the difference? Expectation. I expect that security cameras record me. I do not expect that the recordings will be posted on the internet. I do expect that whoever is recording them will take some reasonable measures to secure their contents. Those are just my expectations. There's no law against violating these expectations, but can't we all agree that the world is a more pleasant place when we respect others' expectations and avoid trampling on them where possible?
- ktizo 14y ago
  I expect that security cameras record me. I do not expect that the recordings will be posted on the internet. Unfortunately, reality is messy and your expectations are somewhat obsolete on this one. http://www.opentopia.com/hiddencam.php http://www.opentopia.com/hiddencam.php
  - bradleyland 14y ago
    My expectations are not obsolete. There's a big difference between public web cams, in-store security cameras, and the web cam on a MacBook at an Apple Store. This is a really good illustration of just how out of touch hackers can be. Just because you found what you believe to be an exception does not mean that everyone's expectations are invalid.

ctdonath 14y ago

No different than if he had walked into the store, stood across the table from someone looking at a computer, and stared into their eyes. That would freak most people out. There would be complaints, and he'd be escorted out & told to not return. Legal? yes, but only because we'd rather not have laws applying the police power of the state against nigh unto every conceivable human interaction however defined.

BHSPitMonkey 14y ago
Not only is that not "no different", it's not even close. Nobody expects that if you stare at them, photos of them will start appearing on a web server as part of an art exhibition (or in any tangible form other than a person's memory, for that matter).
- ctdonath 14y ago
  Fine. "no less" than, in answer to those (him) trying to spin it as something perfectly legal/acceptable which nobody should be concerned/outraged/surprised about. If staring at strangers in stores will get you thrown off the premises, how much more so when staring at thousands of strangers and publishing their reactions?
- nitid_name 14y ago
  They will, once (if?) google goggles gets off the ground.

epoxyhockey 14y ago

when you're using a computer at an Apple store, you're also not expecting that the webcam is snapping photos of you that will be posted online Really?? Over the years, I've become conditioned to assume that if I see any kind of camera lens pointing in my general direction, I am being recorded and that data is going somewhere. I think what's not congruent with social norms is that people still assume that cameras are turned off and aren't recording them & being saved somewhere. I also don't think we're done discussing this topic.. when people start wearing Google glasses everywhere, will everyone finally admit to themselves that they are being recorded almost all the time?

bradleyland 14y ago
> I think what's not congruent with social norms is that people still assume that cameras are turned off and aren't recording them & being saved somewhere. No, people assume that security cameras will be used for their intended purpose. Our expectations are guided by context. The camera is the tip of the iceberg. Behind it is a whole set of intentions. What it will record, who will view it, and what will be done with that recording. The fact that it's a security camera provides implied answers to all of the "what, who, why" questions. The rules of these contexts aren't written down in any rule book, because if we did that, we'd spend our whole lives writing out rule books rather than living. I'm not suggesting that what Kyle did should be illegal. No one was harmed. Some people might have felt uncomfortable, but no one was harmed. I am saying that we should be free to dislike him for it. He won't be harmed, but it might make him feel a little uncomfortable. Then again, maybe it won't.
- epoxyhockey 14y ago
  I understand. I guess I feel that I can't tell which cameras are security cameras anymore. Do they have to be mounted on a ceiling in a corner with a tinted dome? EDIT: If I install Prey on my PC, does my PC camera then qualify as a security camera? Some people might have felt uncomfortable Art is supposed to provoke an emotional response, be it positive or negative. I love it when people walk up to a painting a say something like "This painting looks very angry. I don't like it at all." That's exactly what art is about and only people who are comfortable with being uncomfortable will fully appreciate it.

joe_the_user 14y ago

Last I heard computer intrusion was felony with broad conditions that can be met fairly easily - when you use a computer without permission or when you overstep the implicit or explicit permission you have to use said computer (apologies if I'm wrong but didn't he install his app without explicit permission?). Thus I wouldn't be at all certain that the artist here hasn't gone over the lines of legality. I'm hardly a fan of Apple policies in general but it seems to me that here that sending the Secret Service after this guy is a both legal and appropriate act. I disagree with the parent's claim that legal boundaries are the hard boundaries. Many legal boundaries are extraordinarily fuzzy, often to the detriment of civil liberties ("disorderly conduct" is a real crime for example). Oddly enough, here is a situation where a somewhat fuzzy law seems somewhat appropriate.

DigitalJack 14y ago
My understanding was that he got permission from an employee of the store to install the app, and explained what it was for as well.
- joe_the_user 14y ago
  I reread the article before posting. I believe he only mentions getting permission to photograph. It seems that he took at as a permission to install an app that would photograph. Maybe there was something I missed. If so, show me a quote.
  - jere 14y ago
    Agreed. I doubt he was seriously confused about people's expectations. It seems like he's just trying to act innocent after the fact. "Oh I asked permission to do something tangentially related to my project and parts of the project might have even been legal!" Or maybe I'm wrong and after years of relinquishing your own privacy, you simply have no respect for the privacy of others.
- othermaciej 14y ago
  His lengthy post doesn't mention asking permission to install the app or explaining what it was for to a store employee. Where does your understanding come from?

Shoomz 14y ago

I bounce back and forth on this line thinking that Kyle, while not aware of his social abnormalities, is helping or hurting society. By having someone look at "us" all differently he sheds an interesting light on the individual, but it also is unnerving and crosses boundaries that we would never have thought someone could so easily broach. It is one of the problems with being too close to any subject you're working with (art, a patient, a paper, a project): you get desensitized to anything odd about 'it', but others are just experiencing the phenomena for the first time.

jamesmiller5 14y ago

"For example, it's not illegal to take photos of people on the street, yet US society has a love-hate relationship with the paparazzi. They're not breaking the law, but there are plenty of people who... uh... strongly dislike them. Kyle crossed over in to the same territory." I think the motivations are different here, although the acts are similar the reasons are not.