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Gun control laws certainly aren't settled. I'm passionate about them, but I'm also passionate about people taking an attempt in one state and broadcast it as th

by oooyay 2y ago

Gun control laws certainly aren't settled. I'm passionate about them, but I'm also passionate about people taking an attempt in one state and broadcast it as the standard. Especially when that standard term is also defined federally as something entirely else. Time will go on, these discussions will continue to happen, and we'll have different outcomes. It's fine, and thanks for taking the time to discuss it with me.

tptacek 2y ago
No, my claim is even narrower than that; I'm not asking you to argue against gun control laws. I concede that point. I'm saying the question of whether "assault weapons" are uniquely dangerous is unsettled. Lots of things are uniquely dangerous; backyard pools, for instance. In this case, all I'm saying is: it's not a settled matter that the weapons people commonly refer to as "assault weapons" (semi-automatic long guns) are more or less dangerous than handguns. I think they are quite a bit more dangerous, but all I'm saying here is the matter is unsettled.
- oooyay 2y ago
  Yeap that's fair and truthy.
- kasey_junk 2y ago
  I think this is the weakest part of your argument about assault weapons bans fwiw. It’s pretty clear statistically that handguns are in fact much much more dangerous than assault weapons. But you don’t need to prove that to be anti-assault weapon but it feels very weird to look at the stats around these things and conclude that’s where the focus should be. I think the focus is on assault weapons because handguns are off limits. The populace wants them and the courts are pretty clear on them.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I think if you're aiming to prevent the most deaths, you focus on car accidents. If you're aiming to prevent the most firearm-related deaths, you focus on handguns. If you're aiming to prevent mass shootings, assault weapons are very relevant. You can ask "why prevent mass shootings, when ordinary shootings kill more people", and of course someone else can say "why focus on shootings at all when cars kill more people".
    - kasey_junk 2y ago
      Handguns are used in more mass shootings than assault weapons as well.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        I think that's only true if you use a definition (the technical one, to be sure) that is counterintuitive to most people.
        kasey_junk 2y ago
        I’m curious what definition you’d choose that didn’t just add “with an assault rifle” to the end.
        tptacek 2y ago
        The Congressional Research Service definition works for me.
        kasey_junk 2y ago
        CRS defines 12 deferent types of mass shooting: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48276 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48276 I’d guess you mean the mass public shooting one. It’s hard to find comprehensive data on all the dimensions but in this report for instance https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44126.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44126.pdf You’ll see 16 of 66 mass public shootings were performed by assault weapons that were illegal under the Brady ban but legal now (another one was an illegal conversion and a final one was performed by a police officer who could legally purchase under either regime). So I don’t agree with you about where you’d focus if you wanted to stop mass shootings. And worse than that I think focusing on assault rifles especially turns what is a pretty universally agreed upon problem (mass shootings are increasing and becoming more deadly) into a culture war issue. The courts are nearly certain to affirm civilians rights to own assault rifles soon. We can keep chasing ever more caricatured laws around weapon definitions or we can focus on things that don’t require the culture war: - strong and universal enforcement of the laws on the books that don’t abridge the legal possession rights of citizens (felony straw purchase enforcement, background checks, felony bans, etc) - make domestic abuse disqualifying for firearm ownership (by making it a higher class of crime and enforcing it) - red flag laws and training on identification (including a process to surrender firearms when in crisis and to regain your rights when not) - repeal all the crazy laws preventing the gun industry from being researched and sued - safe storage laws - civil and criminal liability for providing firearms used in crimes And while we’re at it let’s get gun owners mental health resources and build a culture where it’s normal to store guns outside of your house if you start having suicidal thoughts.

by oooyay 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

No, my claim is even narrower than that; I'm not asking you to argue against gun control laws. I concede that point. I'm saying the question of whether "assault weapons" are uniquely dangerous is unsettled. Lots of things are uniquely dangerous; backyard pools, for instance. In this case, all I'm saying is: it's not a settled matter that the weapons people commonly refer to as "assault weapons" (semi-automatic long guns) are more or less dangerous than handguns. I think they are quite a bit more dangerous, but all I'm saying here is the matter is unsettled.

oooyay 2y ago
Yeap that's fair and truthy.
kasey_junk 2y ago
I think this is the weakest part of your argument about assault weapons bans fwiw. It’s pretty clear statistically that handguns are in fact much much more dangerous than assault weapons. But you don’t need to prove that to be anti-assault weapon but it feels very weird to look at the stats around these things and conclude that’s where the focus should be. I think the focus is on assault weapons because handguns are off limits. The populace wants them and the courts are pretty clear on them.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I think if you're aiming to prevent the most deaths, you focus on car accidents. If you're aiming to prevent the most firearm-related deaths, you focus on handguns. If you're aiming to prevent mass shootings, assault weapons are very relevant. You can ask "why prevent mass shootings, when ordinary shootings kill more people", and of course someone else can say "why focus on shootings at all when cars kill more people".
  - kasey_junk 2y ago
    Handguns are used in more mass shootings than assault weapons as well.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      I think that's only true if you use a definition (the technical one, to be sure) that is counterintuitive to most people.
      - kasey_junk 2y ago
        I’m curious what definition you’d choose that didn’t just add “with an assault rifle” to the end.
        tptacek 2y ago
        The Congressional Research Service definition works for me.
        kasey_junk 2y ago
        CRS defines 12 deferent types of mass shooting: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48276 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48276 I’d guess you mean the mass public shooting one. It’s hard to find comprehensive data on all the dimensions but in this report for instance https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44126.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44126.pdf You’ll see 16 of 66 mass public shootings were performed by assault weapons that were illegal under the Brady ban but legal now (another one was an illegal conversion and a final one was performed by a police officer who could legally purchase under either regime). So I don’t agree with you about where you’d focus if you wanted to stop mass shootings. And worse than that I think focusing on assault rifles especially turns what is a pretty universally agreed upon problem (mass shootings are increasing and becoming more deadly) into a culture war issue. The courts are nearly certain to affirm civilians rights to own assault rifles soon. We can keep chasing ever more caricatured laws around weapon definitions or we can focus on things that don’t require the culture war: - strong and universal enforcement of the laws on the books that don’t abridge the legal possession rights of citizens (felony straw purchase enforcement, background checks, felony bans, etc) - make domestic abuse disqualifying for firearm ownership (by making it a higher class of crime and enforcing it) - red flag laws and training on identification (including a process to surrender firearms when in crisis and to regain your rights when not) - repeal all the crazy laws preventing the gun industry from being researched and sued - safe storage laws - civil and criminal liability for providing firearms used in crimes And while we’re at it let’s get gun owners mental health resources and build a culture where it’s normal to store guns outside of your house if you start having suicidal thoughts.