5 ms·

I wish these stories would say if the hours are changing or not. 32 hours, 4 days a week seems better to me. But if all you do is take 40 hours and make it 10

by MBCook 2y ago

I wish these stories would say if the hours are changing or not. 32 hours, 4 days a week seems better to me. But if all you do is take 40 hours and make it 10 hour days I’m not that much happier.

alienreborn 2y ago
I would still take 40 hrs in 4 days vs 5 days. Full extra day is a blessing.
Filligree 2y ago
It's Japan, so they alread have 10 if not 12 hour days, a lot of which isn't work in any sense. Cutting day out of the week also means removing the near-obligatory after-work 'socialising'.
FigurativeVoid 2y ago
I have had friends and family that work 4x10s or even 3x12s and they all vastly prefer the trade-off of more hours per work day for fewer days.
- MBCook 2y ago
  I’d still likely take the option, I just think it’s unnecessary. Productivity is ridiculously up since the 8 hour day was established, even since just two decades ago. Tasks expand to take up the available time, even if usefulness doesn’t. I suspect you’d see little loss in cutting down to 32/hr/week, and I suspect it would be more than made up for by the gains of giving people that extra day. So it may be a net positive. I guess my main concern is that a lot of companies (not speaking about Japan here, just the US) might decide to use four days a week as a way to make people crunch four days thinking that having three days off would make up for that. And things wouldn’t really be any better.
  - bsimpson 2y ago
    That's the unfortunate bit about salaries. If you took a 4x per week job, you'd usually get a 20% pay reduction; however, many jobs could be compressed to 4 days without any loss in productivity.
- rqtwteye 2y ago
  I did 4x10 and I found it horrible. During the four days, I didn't get to do anything other than work and commute. And the stupid thing was that my output (and that of my coworkers as far as I could tell) was not really higher with 10 hours than with 8 hours. Three day weekends are nice though.
- notatoad 2y ago
  i've worked 10s before, and it's alternately amazing and terrible. at an office job, answering emails and going to meetings, 10hrs is completely beyond my tolerance level. but if you've got a project, and you can just put your head down and work, then 10s are really nice.
  - FigurativeVoid 2y ago
    I agree. It's nice if you have something you can get into flow on. The biggest issue with 10s is commute time. If you work 10s with an hour+ commute, that's just awful.
    - elijaht 2y ago
      Wouldn't 10's be better for a longer commute? Need to do it 4 vs 5 days?
      - notatoad 2y ago
        less overall commute time, yeah, but it means your day might be literally nothing but work and sleep. probably not long-term sustainable.
    - toast0 2y ago
      10s may help the commute, depending on duration of local rush hour. I've worked places where leaving at peak meant an hour drive home, and waiting an hour (or two) meant a 30 minute drive home. Otoh, if you take mass transit, waiting an hour or two may put you into all stop trains which could increase your commute time.
anyfoo 2y ago
I disagree, hard.
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
> But if all you do is take 40 hours and make it 10 hour days I’m not that much happier One fewer day of needing to context-switch would be a major life improvement.
taeric 2y ago
From everyone I have ever known that was able to do the fewer days, even with same hours, it is still a game changer.
siavosh 2y ago
Curious how this plays out and comments from anyone who works there now. From what I've read about Japanese work culture, there are many perks/benefits offered but most do not take it cause it's considered selfish etc.
cableshaft 2y ago
One year a company did mandatory 'half-day Fridays' during the summer where the company closed after a half day on Friday. But in order to do that we had to work 9 hour days Monday - Thursday. That extra hour those four days felt torturous, so it meant four days of feeling awful just so I could leave a few hours early on a day in which most people (and myself) already weren't working too hard anyway. I hated it. This was at a very low output insurance company, btw, so there often wasn't huge pressure to get things done quickly (new software releases were once a quarter, and IT would complain that two months lead time wasn't enough time to provision a single new server that was a clone of an existing server, as an example of how slow things moved), and the days dragged on way long. I worked more high pressure startups before where I was often there for 9 or more hours by necessity to meet deadlines that didn't feel so bad.
- Aurornis 2y ago
  I had a job that offered your choice of 4x10 or 5x8. Many people took the 4x10 but then discovered they couldn't handle 10 hour days every day. Like you said, the last 1-2 hours were so unproductive they might as well have been not working. So some people didn't even try to work those last 2 hours. They'd sit at their desks and watch things or play games, pretending to work when anyone came in. Kind of ruined it for everyone.
  - xandrius 2y ago
    So you traded 1 whole day for 2h a day to do whatever you wanted but at the office? Sounds like you spread Friday across the other days. Still a good deal to me, I'd take some online courses or something I wanted to do anyway in my free time.
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      > 2h a day to do whatever you wanted but at the office? Oh, joy. I definitely wouldn't prefer a prison cell with a bed, tv, bookshelf, and privacy. What were those WFH people crying about?
- 2y ago
reverendsteveii 2y ago
not that much happier, no, but it's non-zero. esp with commute time, arranging lunch outside the home, parking or public transportation costs, childcare costs and all sorts of other little expenses that just vanish when you can stay home. Plus a 4x10 schedule doesn't result in a pay cut the way going from 5x8 to 4x8 would. My mom worked 4x10 as a nurse my entire childhood and loved the extra day.
nine_k 2y ago
One of my previous jobs did just that: 10-hours days, 4 days a week. First as an experiment for a month. They found our that performance has grown across the board (engineering, sales, support, etc) and then made it permanent; everybody rejoiced. It was so much easier since then.
WillyWonkaJr 2y ago
100% -- We've been promised more free time due to AI. Probably better to cash in now before this promise is rescinded.
- MBCook 2y ago
  We were with mechanical automation too. And computers. And every other advance. Things improve, jobs take less time to do, so they give us more. But it’s the same number of hours so pay doesn’t go up. We all get screwed.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    But you and your company are now "family", so you can bask in the glow of generating more shareholder value "together"! Hurrah.
eikenberry 2y ago
For many high focus, mentally taxing jobs going from 8 to 10 hour days won't make a difference as you're already done after 4-6 hours anyways.
mrweasel 2y ago
If they are just compress the 40 hours down to 4 days, then this won't work. I don't know how it works in Japan, but how the hell are you suppose to drop off and pick up kids with a 10 hour day, are schools and daycare even available 11-12 hours per day? They'd be increasing the stress four days a week to an ungodly level where families won't be able to function. Most of these four-day workweeks are almost always bullshit, because they insist on keeping the same hours. I hope that's not the case here. Some companies have been experimenting with just slashing a day a week completely and it always increase productivity, retention and happiness.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> make it 10 hour days I’m not that much happier I'd much much rather work 4 x 10 than 5 x 8. Having a whole day without work makes a huge difference. Also, I find myself working 10 hrs a day anyway, so 5 x 10 (or more like 5 x 12).
LightBug1 2y ago
Yeah, just implementing a 4 day week without clarity is horseshit We've just implemented it for the winter and, while kind of good, the expectation is that you'll just get your work done with no conversation about capacity or differences between employees and departments and workloads. I've actually said it ... I'd prefer 5 days with hybrid than a 4 day week Who thought everyone wants a 4 day week? ... I just want the freedom to choose a balanced life and get a job done ... effectively giving the employer a day back! I feel like we've learned nothing from Covid. Having ranted that. For those implementing this properly. Kudos.

by MBCook 2y ago

I wish these stories would say if the hours are changing or not. 32 hours, 4 days a week seems better to me. But if all you do is take 40 hours and make it 10 hour days I’m not that much happier.

alienreborn 2y ago

I would still take 40 hrs in 4 days vs 5 days. Full extra day is a blessing.

Filligree 2y ago

It's Japan, so they alread have 10 if not 12 hour days, a lot of which isn't work in any sense. Cutting day out of the week also means removing the near-obligatory after-work 'socialising'.

FigurativeVoid 2y ago

I have had friends and family that work 4x10s or even 3x12s and they all vastly prefer the trade-off of more hours per work day for fewer days.

MBCook 2y ago
I’d still likely take the option, I just think it’s unnecessary. Productivity is ridiculously up since the 8 hour day was established, even since just two decades ago. Tasks expand to take up the available time, even if usefulness doesn’t. I suspect you’d see little loss in cutting down to 32/hr/week, and I suspect it would be more than made up for by the gains of giving people that extra day. So it may be a net positive. I guess my main concern is that a lot of companies (not speaking about Japan here, just the US) might decide to use four days a week as a way to make people crunch four days thinking that having three days off would make up for that. And things wouldn’t really be any better.
- bsimpson 2y ago
  That's the unfortunate bit about salaries. If you took a 4x per week job, you'd usually get a 20% pay reduction; however, many jobs could be compressed to 4 days without any loss in productivity.
rqtwteye 2y ago
I did 4x10 and I found it horrible. During the four days, I didn't get to do anything other than work and commute. And the stupid thing was that my output (and that of my coworkers as far as I could tell) was not really higher with 10 hours than with 8 hours. Three day weekends are nice though.
notatoad 2y ago
i've worked 10s before, and it's alternately amazing and terrible. at an office job, answering emails and going to meetings, 10hrs is completely beyond my tolerance level. but if you've got a project, and you can just put your head down and work, then 10s are really nice.
- FigurativeVoid 2y ago
  I agree. It's nice if you have something you can get into flow on. The biggest issue with 10s is commute time. If you work 10s with an hour+ commute, that's just awful.
  - elijaht 2y ago
    Wouldn't 10's be better for a longer commute? Need to do it 4 vs 5 days?
    - notatoad 2y ago
      less overall commute time, yeah, but it means your day might be literally nothing but work and sleep. probably not long-term sustainable.
  - toast0 2y ago
    10s may help the commute, depending on duration of local rush hour. I've worked places where leaving at peak meant an hour drive home, and waiting an hour (or two) meant a 30 minute drive home. Otoh, if you take mass transit, waiting an hour or two may put you into all stop trains which could increase your commute time.

anyfoo 2y ago

I disagree, hard.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago

> But if all you do is take 40 hours and make it 10 hour days I’m not that much happier One fewer day of needing to context-switch would be a major life improvement.

taeric 2y ago

From everyone I have ever known that was able to do the fewer days, even with same hours, it is still a game changer.

siavosh 2y ago

Curious how this plays out and comments from anyone who works there now. From what I've read about Japanese work culture, there are many perks/benefits offered but most do not take it cause it's considered selfish etc.

cableshaft 2y ago

One year a company did mandatory 'half-day Fridays' during the summer where the company closed after a half day on Friday. But in order to do that we had to work 9 hour days Monday - Thursday. That extra hour those four days felt torturous, so it meant four days of feeling awful just so I could leave a few hours early on a day in which most people (and myself) already weren't working too hard anyway. I hated it. This was at a very low output insurance company, btw, so there often wasn't huge pressure to get things done quickly (new software releases were once a quarter, and IT would complain that two months lead time wasn't enough time to provision a single new server that was a clone of an existing server, as an example of how slow things moved), and the days dragged on way long. I worked more high pressure startups before where I was often there for 9 or more hours by necessity to meet deadlines that didn't feel so bad.

Aurornis 2y ago
I had a job that offered your choice of 4x10 or 5x8. Many people took the 4x10 but then discovered they couldn't handle 10 hour days every day. Like you said, the last 1-2 hours were so unproductive they might as well have been not working. So some people didn't even try to work those last 2 hours. They'd sit at their desks and watch things or play games, pretending to work when anyone came in. Kind of ruined it for everyone.
- xandrius 2y ago
  So you traded 1 whole day for 2h a day to do whatever you wanted but at the office? Sounds like you spread Friday across the other days. Still a good deal to me, I'd take some online courses or something I wanted to do anyway in my free time.
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    > 2h a day to do whatever you wanted but at the office? Oh, joy. I definitely wouldn't prefer a prison cell with a bed, tv, bookshelf, and privacy. What were those WFH people crying about?
2y ago

reverendsteveii 2y ago

not that much happier, no, but it's non-zero. esp with commute time, arranging lunch outside the home, parking or public transportation costs, childcare costs and all sorts of other little expenses that just vanish when you can stay home. Plus a 4x10 schedule doesn't result in a pay cut the way going from 5x8 to 4x8 would. My mom worked 4x10 as a nurse my entire childhood and loved the extra day.

nine_k 2y ago

One of my previous jobs did just that: 10-hours days, 4 days a week. First as an experiment for a month. They found our that performance has grown across the board (engineering, sales, support, etc) and then made it permanent; everybody rejoiced. It was so much easier since then.

WillyWonkaJr 2y ago

100% -- We've been promised more free time due to AI. Probably better to cash in now before this promise is rescinded.

MBCook 2y ago
We were with mechanical automation too. And computers. And every other advance. Things improve, jobs take less time to do, so they give us more. But it’s the same number of hours so pay doesn’t go up. We all get screwed.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  But you and your company are now "family", so you can bask in the glow of generating more shareholder value "together"! Hurrah.

eikenberry 2y ago

For many high focus, mentally taxing jobs going from 8 to 10 hour days won't make a difference as you're already done after 4-6 hours anyways.

mrweasel 2y ago

If they are just compress the 40 hours down to 4 days, then this won't work. I don't know how it works in Japan, but how the hell are you suppose to drop off and pick up kids with a 10 hour day, are schools and daycare even available 11-12 hours per day? They'd be increasing the stress four days a week to an ungodly level where families won't be able to function. Most of these four-day workweeks are almost always bullshit, because they insist on keeping the same hours. I hope that's not the case here. Some companies have been experimenting with just slashing a day a week completely and it always increase productivity, retention and happiness.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

> make it 10 hour days I’m not that much happier I'd much much rather work 4 x 10 than 5 x 8. Having a whole day without work makes a huge difference. Also, I find myself working 10 hrs a day anyway, so 5 x 10 (or more like 5 x 12).

LightBug1 2y ago

Yeah, just implementing a 4 day week without clarity is horseshit We've just implemented it for the winter and, while kind of good, the expectation is that you'll just get your work done with no conversation about capacity or differences between employees and departments and workloads. I've actually said it ... I'd prefer 5 days with hybrid than a 4 day week Who thought everyone wants a 4 day week? ... I just want the freedom to choose a balanced life and get a job done ... effectively giving the employer a day back! I feel like we've learned nothing from Covid. Having ranted that. For those implementing this properly. Kudos.