5 ms·

>Ukraine is losing (very very slowly, and can still win), This is not remotely true, Ukraine can't retake what it's lost they have no men left. If it were true

>Ukraine is losing (very very slowly, and can still win), This is not remotely true, Ukraine can't retake what it's lost they have no men left. If it were true Zelensky wouldn't be contemplating ceding territory to Russia. It sucks but Ukraine lost in 2014 when the world let Crimea get annexed with no response. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/zelensky-says-for-first-time-he-would-give-up-ukrainian-territory-to-russia-20241130-p5kurg.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/zelensky-says-for-first-...

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
Just depends on how you define “winning”. Right now both Russia and Ukraine are losing a lot compared to before 2022.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  By their own goals, Russia already lost this war 2 years ago. They may end it with a little extra territory and people, but that's not a victory, again, by their own claims.
aguaviva 2y ago
Ukraine can't retake what it's lost they have no men left. You're extremifying. You could have said "they don't have enough people". But instead you had to dial it up to "they have no men left". No matter what is actually happening on the ground -- you definitely won't be able to make heads or tails of it, if you keep confounding yourself with rhetoric like this.
- rrr_oh_man 2y ago
  > You could have said "they don't have enough people". But instead you had to dial it up to "they have no men left". The realities of war are not LGBTQ-friendly. My male cousin has not been allowed to leave the country for almost 3 years. His wife is in Germany.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    I'm sorry you got triggered, but that was absolutely in no way what I was getting at. That line had nothing whatsoever to do with this "people"/"men" nonsense. I was referring simply to the quantifier.
    - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
      Thanks for the explanation. What’s the difference between those two?
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        Subtracting the "people" vs "men" noise, I was trying to draw the distinction between the phrasings "they don't have enough people" and "they have no people left" (in both cases to meaning available to fight). The former suggests a situation which is quite dire, and that is certainly accurate in regard to Ukraine's current situation. The latter (if taken at face value) is essentially totalistic, and objectively misleading. That doesn't mean that that was their intent, of course. But to my ears it comes across as an overly emotionalized and in any case muddled characterization of the situation. Kind of like when, say, a startup is going through rough times and someone says "everyone's leaving" when really it was just their friend and a couple other people who have left. There's a word for this expressive style, btw: "histrionics".
        rrr_oh_man 2y ago
        Thank you for this in-depth clarification. Much appreciated. I'd argue the situation is quite dire and the, arguably fatalistic, phrasing is not incorrect here. Men are not allowed to exit the country, and I know personally quite a few cases where males, who were in no real fighting age or condition, were literally picked up on the street and sent to the front. With handcuffs and aggressive force. In my former hometown. So, staying in your analogy, "everyone's leaving" is rather correct, with the modifier "...who has enough money or sheer luck". "But they're still there" feels like nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.
- AustinDev 2y ago
  "War does not determine who is right—only who is left." You're right that there are men still living in Ukraine, Zelensky is still alive after all. However, the manpower situation has been pretty bleak for a while. [1] I'm in regular contact with people in theater and I'm not far off in saying 'there are no men left'. Russia is still advancing albeit slowly. We'll likely have new borders in a few months. Almost time to update your globe. [1] https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-16/ukraine-village-fighting-age-men-13338562.html https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-16/ukraine-v...
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    We're broadly on the same page it seems. I just found that the original choice of wording tiltied more into the territory of spin than a sober assessment of the state of things. That is all. Unfortunately, this kind of blurring has permeated the general discourse. Best to luck to whomever in your in contact with. I won't be changing my globe for anyone, however.
    - AustinDev 2y ago
      People do put a lot of spin on this topic. Your initial reaction is completely understandable. Thanks, hopefully they'll be home soon. I've been mowing his grass for nearly 3 years, hardly a commensurate sacrifice I must admit.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        We each do our part. Every bit helps.
  - arandomusername 2y ago
    > Russia is still advancing albeit slowly Isn't their rate of advancement a lot faster than a year ago?
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Yes, but it also seems to have plateaued, and has held steady for the past 9 months or so.
r00fus 2y ago
[flagged]
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  Yes I'm sure there were no strings attached at all to Russian "support" to the Ukrainian economy.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

Just depends on how you define “winning”. Right now both Russia and Ukraine are losing a lot compared to before 2022.

mrguyorama 2y ago
By their own goals, Russia already lost this war 2 years ago. They may end it with a little extra territory and people, but that's not a victory, again, by their own claims.

aguaviva 2y ago

Ukraine can't retake what it's lost they have no men left. You're extremifying. You could have said "they don't have enough people". But instead you had to dial it up to "they have no men left". No matter what is actually happening on the ground -- you definitely won't be able to make heads or tails of it, if you keep confounding yourself with rhetoric like this.

rrr_oh_man 2y ago
> You could have said "they don't have enough people". But instead you had to dial it up to "they have no men left". The realities of war are not LGBTQ-friendly. My male cousin has not been allowed to leave the country for almost 3 years. His wife is in Germany.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  I'm sorry you got triggered, but that was absolutely in no way what I was getting at. That line had nothing whatsoever to do with this "people"/"men" nonsense. I was referring simply to the quantifier.
  - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
    Thanks for the explanation. What’s the difference between those two?
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Subtracting the "people" vs "men" noise, I was trying to draw the distinction between the phrasings "they don't have enough people" and "they have no people left" (in both cases to meaning available to fight). The former suggests a situation which is quite dire, and that is certainly accurate in regard to Ukraine's current situation. The latter (if taken at face value) is essentially totalistic, and objectively misleading. That doesn't mean that that was their intent, of course. But to my ears it comes across as an overly emotionalized and in any case muddled characterization of the situation. Kind of like when, say, a startup is going through rough times and someone says "everyone's leaving" when really it was just their friend and a couple other people who have left. There's a word for this expressive style, btw: "histrionics".
      - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
        Thank you for this in-depth clarification. Much appreciated. I'd argue the situation is quite dire and the, arguably fatalistic, phrasing is not incorrect here. Men are not allowed to exit the country, and I know personally quite a few cases where males, who were in no real fighting age or condition, were literally picked up on the street and sent to the front. With handcuffs and aggressive force. In my former hometown. So, staying in your analogy, "everyone's leaving" is rather correct, with the modifier "...who has enough money or sheer luck". "But they're still there" feels like nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.
AustinDev 2y ago
"War does not determine who is right—only who is left." You're right that there are men still living in Ukraine, Zelensky is still alive after all. However, the manpower situation has been pretty bleak for a while. [1] I'm in regular contact with people in theater and I'm not far off in saying 'there are no men left'. Russia is still advancing albeit slowly. We'll likely have new borders in a few months. Almost time to update your globe. [1] https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-16/ukraine-village-fighting-age-men-13338562.html https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-16/ukraine-v...
- aguaviva 2y ago
  We're broadly on the same page it seems. I just found that the original choice of wording tiltied more into the territory of spin than a sober assessment of the state of things. That is all. Unfortunately, this kind of blurring has permeated the general discourse. Best to luck to whomever in your in contact with. I won't be changing my globe for anyone, however.
  - AustinDev 2y ago
    People do put a lot of spin on this topic. Your initial reaction is completely understandable. Thanks, hopefully they'll be home soon. I've been mowing his grass for nearly 3 years, hardly a commensurate sacrifice I must admit.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      We each do our part. Every bit helps.
- arandomusername 2y ago
  > Russia is still advancing albeit slowly Isn't their rate of advancement a lot faster than a year ago?
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Yes, but it also seems to have plateaued, and has held steady for the past 9 months or so.

r00fus 2y ago

[flagged]

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
Yes I'm sure there were no strings attached at all to Russian "support" to the Ukrainian economy.