3 ms·

> Shareholders are no more responsible for the misdeeds of management than voters are for the misdeeds of politicians, after all. That's BS. Big shareholders c

by tivert 2y ago

> Shareholders are no more responsible for the misdeeds of management than voters are for the misdeeds of politicians, after all. That's BS. Big shareholders can get seats on the board of directors and have influence over management decision-making. Jail time for shareholders is probably going too far in most circumstances, but forfeiture of shares is pretty reasonable.

anonym29 2y ago
>but forfeiture of shares is pretty reasonable. From who, and to who? From only those big shareholders with seats on the board, from the "little guy", or from both? What happens to the forfeited shares in your proposal? Are we redistributing them? Are they getting nationalized? Mandatory buybacks? Destruction of those shares, increasing the voting power of the other shares?
nradov 2y ago
Seizing shares without paying compensation at the market rate would be flatly unconstitutional. There's really no question about that, it's a settled legal issue.
- tivert 2y ago
  > Seizing shares without paying compensation at the market rate would be flatly unconstitutional. There's really no question about that, it's a settled legal issue. I don't think so. The scenario isn't an eminent domain "give it up 'cause we want that property" it's "you did wrong [because it did wrong and you own it], and this is your punishment." It's basically a fine, and fines aren't unconstitutional. Furthermore, in this specific case, Boeing has plead guilty to a felony, which makes the existence of a legal wrong pretty crystal clear.
  - nradov 2y ago
    You may not "think" so, but you would be completely wrong because you're ignorant about the basics of US law. Boeing as a corporation and their shareholders are separate legal entities.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      I know this is crazy talk, but with enough political will, US law can actually be changed.
      - nradov 2y ago
        Yes, that's literally crazy talk. Boeing shareholders haven't broken any law currently on the books. Regardless of what Boeing (the corporation) and its employees might have done there is zero political will to change the US Constitution Article I, Section 9, Clause 3, or the 5th Amendment. Not going to happen in our lifetimes. https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C3-3-3/ALDE_00013193/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C3-3-... https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5-9-1/ALDE_00013280/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5-9-1/ALD... The level is aggressive ignorance that we see in HN comments about legal issues is both hilarious and depressing. Most HN users are educated US citizens and yet somehow they're still ignorant about the basics. I guess that's an indictment of our educational system?
        tivert 2y ago
        I think you're confusing talk about what to do about similar future infractions with what to do about this current infraction. Also, do you think the fine for a parking ticket is a taking? Does the government have to compensate me for the fair market value of the money it took? You application to the takings clause to these kids of scenarios is absurd.
        nradov 2y ago
        Wow, you're really confused about the basics of constitutional law. How sad. Boeing as a corporation is in the process of pleading guilty to a crime, and as part of that they can be punished in a variety of ways such as fine. But Boeing shareholders haven't been accused of any crime and are not defendants in this case. The shareholders are legally separate from the corporation. There is no legal mechanism to seize their shares as punishment, and hypothetically if Boeing were to be forcibly nationalized then the government would be forced to pay shareholders at the market rate.

by tivert 2y ago

anonym29 2y ago

>but forfeiture of shares is pretty reasonable. From who, and to who? From only those big shareholders with seats on the board, from the "little guy", or from both? What happens to the forfeited shares in your proposal? Are we redistributing them? Are they getting nationalized? Mandatory buybacks? Destruction of those shares, increasing the voting power of the other shares?

nradov 2y ago

Seizing shares without paying compensation at the market rate would be flatly unconstitutional. There's really no question about that, it's a settled legal issue.

tivert 2y ago
> Seizing shares without paying compensation at the market rate would be flatly unconstitutional. There's really no question about that, it's a settled legal issue. I don't think so. The scenario isn't an eminent domain "give it up 'cause we want that property" it's "you did wrong [because it did wrong and you own it], and this is your punishment." It's basically a fine, and fines aren't unconstitutional. Furthermore, in this specific case, Boeing has plead guilty to a felony, which makes the existence of a legal wrong pretty crystal clear.
- nradov 2y ago
  You may not "think" so, but you would be completely wrong because you're ignorant about the basics of US law. Boeing as a corporation and their shareholders are separate legal entities.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    I know this is crazy talk, but with enough political will, US law can actually be changed.
    - nradov 2y ago
      Yes, that's literally crazy talk. Boeing shareholders haven't broken any law currently on the books. Regardless of what Boeing (the corporation) and its employees might have done there is zero political will to change the US Constitution Article I, Section 9, Clause 3, or the 5th Amendment. Not going to happen in our lifetimes. https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C3-3-3/ALDE_00013193/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C3-3-... https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5-9-1/ALDE_00013280/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5-9-1/ALD... The level is aggressive ignorance that we see in HN comments about legal issues is both hilarious and depressing. Most HN users are educated US citizens and yet somehow they're still ignorant about the basics. I guess that's an indictment of our educational system?
      - tivert 2y ago
        I think you're confusing talk about what to do about similar future infractions with what to do about this current infraction. Also, do you think the fine for a parking ticket is a taking? Does the government have to compensate me for the fair market value of the money it took? You application to the takings clause to these kids of scenarios is absurd.
        nradov 2y ago
        Wow, you're really confused about the basics of constitutional law. How sad. Boeing as a corporation is in the process of pleading guilty to a crime, and as part of that they can be punished in a variety of ways such as fine. But Boeing shareholders haven't been accused of any crime and are not defendants in this case. The shareholders are legally separate from the corporation. There is no legal mechanism to seize their shares as punishment, and hypothetically if Boeing were to be forcibly nationalized then the government would be forced to pay shareholders at the market rate.