7 ms·

Surgeon General says loneliness is driving US into anxiety and pessimism

44 points by jaybhum 2y ago

incomingpain 2y ago
Lets autisticly cut to the chase, this article is 100% about 1 paragraph. Solution: Social Interaction What happened about 50 years ago which REDUCED social interaction significantly? There's only 3 answers. All decisions by politicians with a negative consequence to social interaction per year. It will continue to trend worse. Social media, which only got invented recently, has no bearing on this conversation. Sorry, I wont be able to say what these 3 are here. The name of these will only serve to get me labelled *ist. I've got the ism, whatever. Why is nobody allowed to discuss those 3 answers? Reddit committed suicide is now far behind Linkedin having overtly banned and pushed over 50% of their users off their site. Why is it that these 3 answers are bannable offences, but also not listed in the reddit rules? Well I asked... they dont want to boost these topics by putting them in the rules. So instead you get banned for violating a rule you didnt know was a rule? They unban you like as if they are doing you a favour. Why is it governments have sunk billions if not trillions into trying to fix this problem... but refuse to look at the 3 answers? Are they willfully blind? Ignorance due to censorship is not an excuse. You can have quadrillion $ into 'community development' and 'social infrastructure' but you are literally throwing that money into a pit of fire. It hasnt worked for decades... completely insane to keep trying. But taxpayer money grows on trees i guess. Why do politicians not do the extremely unpopular, stupid to do, yet necessary changes? political suicide sure. In this case, probably assassinated. Why does it have to become a crisis? Only after its a crisis will people listen to a fix, but we do have a social crisis. The fundamental reason democracy needs actual free speech and no censorship is because sometimes you gotta say what's unpopular. Sometimes you even need to do it. But when you are in a situation where you even self-censor to avoid theoretical censorship, the discussion never happens. This is why we are in this situation.
LIzzyytujghf 2y ago
[dead]
jaybhum 2y ago
"If I told you, 'I went into my backyard, I made this pill. It's amazing. It's free. If you take it, it'll actually improve your health, make you feel better, improve your performance at work, improve your grades, boost your immunity,' you'd be like, 'Sign me up. I'll take that tomorrow.'" It turns out that's what social connection is. Just a little connection can go a long way in keeping us healthy.
- hccb 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - recursive 2y ago
    Some of them? Or all of them? Are you boring?
    - OnlineGladiator 2y ago
      It's possible for people to like you without you liking them back. It's not the most likely explanation, but it's a plausible one.
  - jmkni 2y ago
    You just have to find the right people - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYCz06bS380 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYCz06bS380
  - TuringTourist 2y ago
    People you don't know are boring. Most people are full of surprises, unique insights, traits, and perspectives, if given enough time in the right setting. An increasing rarity at this point.
  - AznHisoka 2y ago
    “In groups, they are terrible. As individuals, you can see the universe in them”
  - tarboreus 2y ago
Salmonfisher11 2y ago
[flagged]
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Hear me out: shorter work week (4 day week), work life balance, and living where there is more density and public transit to reduce social friction. Humans are social creatures, they must have time and opportunity to be social. We've done the line go up thing, and it isn't working out great. Maybe we could try something else?
  - Salmonfisher11 2y ago
    Theoretically yes. Practically almost all people got highly manipulated into having no hobby's or interests in their free time. They will find no use for a 4 day week not will they see any advantages.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      "We've tried nothing and we're all out of options." The data on 4 Day Week trials has been positive in almost all cases [1], across many countries, same with remote work. We should try it if we care, I just don't think we care at a system level. Like rapidly declining fertility rates, there is enough will to complain, no will to change anything (imho, based on observations and the data). Maybe things need to get worse before they get better, I think we're just arguing over how bad the situation will need to get before change is made (structural demographics, socioeconomics, etc). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39992783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39992783 (citations)
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Additional citation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42342203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42342203 ("HN: Tokyo government gives workers 4-day workweek to boost fertility, family time") https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/asia/tokyo-government-4-day-workweek-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/asia/tokyo-government-4-day-w... ("CNN: Tokyo government gives workers 4-day workweek to boost fertility, family time")
GuestFAUniverse 2y ago
[flagged]
- gruez 2y ago
  >evangelical doomers and GOP clowns As if reddit (and similar left leaning spaces) aren't filled with "doomers" and "clowns".
- draw_down 2y ago
  [dead]
bondarchuk 2y ago
Always funny to see the kind of prestige the Surgeon General has in the US, and the weight that statements like this carry (like the one on smoking, too). Here in NL I can't think of anyone in a similar position. (I'm not knocking it at all, to be clear)
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Most people probably know the Surgeon General as that guy who always slaps his warning message that nobody reads on beer bottles, cigarette packs, etc.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  It goes beyond him. He's the head of one of the US government's eight uniformed services[0]. Like, in a sense, he's literally a general. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Public_Health_Service_Commissioned_Corps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Public_Health_Se...
exprofmaddy 2y ago
Where do you go to meet real humans and have social interaction?
- ErikAugust 2y ago
  Hacker News.
  - MegaButts 2y ago
    I find HN more depressing than other social media. It's more focused on money, more anonymous (which isn't necessarily bad, but harder to connect with people), but mostly it's by far the most arrogant. I became a lot happier when I stopped showing up here regularly.
    - bubblic 2y ago
      Def on the higher end of social media IQ spectrum
      - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
        Certainly likes to pretend that it is, anyway.
        jaybhum 2y ago
        Wouldn’t mind that’s for sure
- exe34 2y ago
  I gave up before lockdown, and it turned out I was just preparing for what everybody else felt was the social apocalypse.
- dpkirchner 2y ago
  In my case a local makerspace to play board games. I've made a few friends that I hang out with outside the space -- sometimes I host events in my home, sometimes we go out to get dinner or whatever.
lenerdenator 2y ago
And that's profitable. So it shall continue.
yeahwhatever10 2y ago
Part of me thinks the meanness with which people interact with each other online makes people more hesitant to interact with others irl.
- bubblic 2y ago
  Yeah the online interaction can't convey the human warmth as well as irl does for sure.
epolanski 2y ago
Not just US albeit about US we have interesting data. I've read that the average american adult went from spending 11 hours per week with friends and family few decades ago to 4+ in 2010s, and sub 3 after covid. Loneliness is the big sickness of our modern IT times.
- bubblic 2y ago
  It is quite drastic. And the number of close friends follow a similar trend too
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
> Social Infrastructure That's a term that I use, for the type of social structure that most societies have[0]. Bit different from what he's written. It's not just a problem for young folks. Older folks are having huge problems with loneliness. I won't speak to how it affects our physical well-being, but it sure does affect our mental well-being, and our mental health can definitely inform our physical health. I'm always an advocate of engaging in volunteer or nonprofit work. It definitely has its issues, but does wonders for loneliness. Most of the folks that hang out here, have extremely valuable skills, that could do wonders for NPOs. [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/infrastructure/#social_inf https://littlegreenviper.com/infrastructure/#social_inf
- bubblic 2y ago
  Right, the whole aspect of shared culture passed down many generations contain the wisdom that makes sure everyone has a role in the society
waterhouse 2y ago
> The reason for anxiety and pessimism is because people are feeling more lonely. Might anxiety cause loneliness? Seems pretty logical. > More than half the people in America feel lonely, and the numbers are actually the greatest among the young people, young boys and girls. And this not only has implications in mental health, but it also has implications in physical health. It increases the risk for heart disease and premature death. Vivek also mentions that loneliness is a mental health issue. The issue has come up before: Mightn't bad physical health, and especially bad mental health, cause loneliness? It's certainly plausible that causation happens in both directions; I expect there's more than zero of that. But which direction is the bigger one? I have no idea. And if someone wants to say this with the authority of the Surgeon General, I want them to bring citations that actually prove causality.
gspencley 2y ago
I wonder how introversion affects loneliness. I'm not just introverted, I am rather extreme ... to the point where I've wondered if I might have schizoid personality disorder (characterized by apathy towards forming close personal relationships). I don't dislike being around people, I'm no misantrhope, but when I do engage in social activities I'm usually literally bed-ridden for a day or two after. I'm not even exaggerating. It is a level of fatigue that is reminiscent of the symptoms of clinical depression (but it's not depression because the cause and effect is well observed over 40 years of trying to figure myself out). When this happens I have zero motivation, zero energy, zero desire to do anything but sit on my fat unproductive lazy ass and be a complete vegetable and this will last for a day two depending on the intensity of the social interaction (if I go on vacation and disrupt my routine for a couple of weeks, I'm looking at upwards of a week to recover). Introverts commonly describe the need "re-charge" after social interaction, and that's clearly what this is. It's just dialled up to 11 for me. And this happens even if I had a great time with people that I really care about. Even date night with my wife will do this to me. Every time I hear about the loneliness epidemic I wonder how universally applicable this is: to what degree are introverts susceptible to the negative effects of loneliness? To what degree do other introverts feel lonely? And are some people (like me) just wired so differently in the brain that we're "immune" to loneliness. I mean I've gone months without talking to a single other human being. The data suggests that I should have all sorts of symptoms as a result, including "cabin fever" etc. But I've never experienced that. I certainly don't feel depressed when this happens. If anything I'm more productive and energetic and happy versus when I'm interacting with people regularly. I'm not even sure that I know what loneliness feels like or if I'm capable of experiencing it. This is very personal and subjective. I'm mostly writing it just to see if other introverts feel the same or differently. If the "epidemic" is an "extrovert's epidemic" or I'm just, for lack of a better term, completely fucked in the head with an actual mental disorder that prevents me from ever feeling the slightest desire to connect with others, even following prolonged periods of isolation.
- bubblic 2y ago
  That's very interesting and I wonder if it is related to your physical fitness? Social interaction and going out does require more from your body and I wonder if this is something you can train for like you train your muscles
obscurette 2y ago
I'm in my sixties and can compare my life in seventies with the life of my kids (in late twenties now) and the life of kids nowadays. The obvious difference is that people nowadays don't have to interact with too many different people. They can totally ignore most of the world without any consequences, but this wasn't the case when I grew up. I had the myriad of relatives, cousins etc you had to interact with. In lot of cases this was awkward for me as introverted nerd, but I learned a lot from it. Without this need and practice I can totally see myself being lonely single in later life, not as father of three, grandfather of two, member of several communities etc I am now.

44 points by jaybhum 2y ago

Lets autisticly cut to the chase, this article is 100% about 1 paragraph. Solution: Social Interaction What happened about 50 years ago which REDUCED social interaction significantly? There's only 3 answers. All decisions by politicians with a negative consequence to social interaction per year. It will continue to trend worse. Social media, which only got invented recently, has no bearing on this conversation. Sorry, I wont be able to say what these 3 are here. The name of these will only serve to get me labelled *ist. I've got the ism, whatever. Why is nobody allowed to discuss those 3 answers? Reddit committed suicide is now far behind Linkedin having overtly banned and pushed over 50% of their users off their site. Why is it that these 3 answers are bannable offences, but also not listed in the reddit rules? Well I asked... they dont want to boost these topics by putting them in the rules. So instead you get banned for violating a rule you didnt know was a rule? They unban you like as if they are doing you a favour. Why is it governments have sunk billions if not trillions into trying to fix this problem... but refuse to look at the 3 answers? Are they willfully blind? Ignorance due to censorship is not an excuse. You can have quadrillion $ into 'community development' and 'social infrastructure' but you are literally throwing that money into a pit of fire. It hasnt worked for decades... completely insane to keep trying. But taxpayer money grows on trees i guess. Why do politicians not do the extremely unpopular, stupid to do, yet necessary changes? political suicide sure. In this case, probably assassinated. Why does it have to become a crisis? Only after its a crisis will people listen to a fix, but we do have a social crisis. The fundamental reason democracy needs actual free speech and no censorship is because sometimes you gotta say what's unpopular. Sometimes you even need to do it. But when you are in a situation where you even self-censor to avoid theoretical censorship, the discussion never happens. This is why we are in this situation.

LIzzyytujghf 2y ago

[dead]

jaybhum 2y ago

"If I told you, 'I went into my backyard, I made this pill. It's amazing. It's free. If you take it, it'll actually improve your health, make you feel better, improve your performance at work, improve your grades, boost your immunity,' you'd be like, 'Sign me up. I'll take that tomorrow.'" It turns out that's what social connection is. Just a little connection can go a long way in keeping us healthy.

hccb 2y ago
[flagged]
- recursive 2y ago
  Some of them? Or all of them? Are you boring?
  - OnlineGladiator 2y ago
    It's possible for people to like you without you liking them back. It's not the most likely explanation, but it's a plausible one.
- jmkni 2y ago
  You just have to find the right people - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYCz06bS380 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYCz06bS380
- TuringTourist 2y ago
  People you don't know are boring. Most people are full of surprises, unique insights, traits, and perspectives, if given enough time in the right setting. An increasing rarity at this point.
- AznHisoka 2y ago
  “In groups, they are terrible. As individuals, you can see the universe in them”
- tarboreus 2y ago

Salmonfisher11 2y ago

[flagged]

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Hear me out: shorter work week (4 day week), work life balance, and living where there is more density and public transit to reduce social friction. Humans are social creatures, they must have time and opportunity to be social. We've done the line go up thing, and it isn't working out great. Maybe we could try something else?
- Salmonfisher11 2y ago
  Theoretically yes. Practically almost all people got highly manipulated into having no hobby's or interests in their free time. They will find no use for a 4 day week not will they see any advantages.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    "We've tried nothing and we're all out of options." The data on 4 Day Week trials has been positive in almost all cases [1], across many countries, same with remote work. We should try it if we care, I just don't think we care at a system level. Like rapidly declining fertility rates, there is enough will to complain, no will to change anything (imho, based on observations and the data). Maybe things need to get worse before they get better, I think we're just arguing over how bad the situation will need to get before change is made (structural demographics, socioeconomics, etc). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39992783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39992783 (citations)
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Additional citation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42342203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42342203 ("HN: Tokyo government gives workers 4-day workweek to boost fertility, family time") https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/asia/tokyo-government-4-day-workweek-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/asia/tokyo-government-4-day-w... ("CNN: Tokyo government gives workers 4-day workweek to boost fertility, family time")

GuestFAUniverse 2y ago

[flagged]

gruez 2y ago
>evangelical doomers and GOP clowns As if reddit (and similar left leaning spaces) aren't filled with "doomers" and "clowns".
draw_down 2y ago
[dead]

bondarchuk 2y ago

Always funny to see the kind of prestige the Surgeon General has in the US, and the weight that statements like this carry (like the one on smoking, too). Here in NL I can't think of anyone in a similar position. (I'm not knocking it at all, to be clear)

Dalewyn 2y ago
Most people probably know the Surgeon General as that guy who always slaps his warning message that nobody reads on beer bottles, cigarette packs, etc.
lenerdenator 2y ago
It goes beyond him. He's the head of one of the US government's eight uniformed services[0]. Like, in a sense, he's literally a general. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Public_Health_Service_Commissioned_Corps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Public_Health_Se...

exprofmaddy 2y ago

Where do you go to meet real humans and have social interaction?

ErikAugust 2y ago
Hacker News.
- MegaButts 2y ago
  I find HN more depressing than other social media. It's more focused on money, more anonymous (which isn't necessarily bad, but harder to connect with people), but mostly it's by far the most arrogant. I became a lot happier when I stopped showing up here regularly.
  - bubblic 2y ago
    Def on the higher end of social media IQ spectrum
    - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
      Certainly likes to pretend that it is, anyway.
      - jaybhum 2y ago
        Wouldn’t mind that’s for sure
exe34 2y ago
I gave up before lockdown, and it turned out I was just preparing for what everybody else felt was the social apocalypse.
dpkirchner 2y ago
In my case a local makerspace to play board games. I've made a few friends that I hang out with outside the space -- sometimes I host events in my home, sometimes we go out to get dinner or whatever.

lenerdenator 2y ago

And that's profitable. So it shall continue.

yeahwhatever10 2y ago

Part of me thinks the meanness with which people interact with each other online makes people more hesitant to interact with others irl.

bubblic 2y ago
Yeah the online interaction can't convey the human warmth as well as irl does for sure.

epolanski 2y ago

Not just US albeit about US we have interesting data. I've read that the average american adult went from spending 11 hours per week with friends and family few decades ago to 4+ in 2010s, and sub 3 after covid. Loneliness is the big sickness of our modern IT times.

bubblic 2y ago
It is quite drastic. And the number of close friends follow a similar trend too

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

> Social Infrastructure That's a term that I use, for the type of social structure that most societies have[0]. Bit different from what he's written. It's not just a problem for young folks. Older folks are having huge problems with loneliness. I won't speak to how it affects our physical well-being, but it sure does affect our mental well-being, and our mental health can definitely inform our physical health. I'm always an advocate of engaging in volunteer or nonprofit work. It definitely has its issues, but does wonders for loneliness. Most of the folks that hang out here, have extremely valuable skills, that could do wonders for NPOs. [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/infrastructure/#social_inf https://littlegreenviper.com/infrastructure/#social_inf

bubblic 2y ago
Right, the whole aspect of shared culture passed down many generations contain the wisdom that makes sure everyone has a role in the society

waterhouse 2y ago

> The reason for anxiety and pessimism is because people are feeling more lonely. Might anxiety cause loneliness? Seems pretty logical. > More than half the people in America feel lonely, and the numbers are actually the greatest among the young people, young boys and girls. And this not only has implications in mental health, but it also has implications in physical health. It increases the risk for heart disease and premature death. Vivek also mentions that loneliness is a mental health issue. The issue has come up before: Mightn't bad physical health, and especially bad mental health, cause loneliness? It's certainly plausible that causation happens in both directions; I expect there's more than zero of that. But which direction is the bigger one? I have no idea. And if someone wants to say this with the authority of the Surgeon General, I want them to bring citations that actually prove causality.

gspencley 2y ago

I wonder how introversion affects loneliness. I'm not just introverted, I am rather extreme ... to the point where I've wondered if I might have schizoid personality disorder (characterized by apathy towards forming close personal relationships). I don't dislike being around people, I'm no misantrhope, but when I do engage in social activities I'm usually literally bed-ridden for a day or two after. I'm not even exaggerating. It is a level of fatigue that is reminiscent of the symptoms of clinical depression (but it's not depression because the cause and effect is well observed over 40 years of trying to figure myself out). When this happens I have zero motivation, zero energy, zero desire to do anything but sit on my fat unproductive lazy ass and be a complete vegetable and this will last for a day two depending on the intensity of the social interaction (if I go on vacation and disrupt my routine for a couple of weeks, I'm looking at upwards of a week to recover). Introverts commonly describe the need "re-charge" after social interaction, and that's clearly what this is. It's just dialled up to 11 for me. And this happens even if I had a great time with people that I really care about. Even date night with my wife will do this to me. Every time I hear about the loneliness epidemic I wonder how universally applicable this is: to what degree are introverts susceptible to the negative effects of loneliness? To what degree do other introverts feel lonely? And are some people (like me) just wired so differently in the brain that we're "immune" to loneliness. I mean I've gone months without talking to a single other human being. The data suggests that I should have all sorts of symptoms as a result, including "cabin fever" etc. But I've never experienced that. I certainly don't feel depressed when this happens. If anything I'm more productive and energetic and happy versus when I'm interacting with people regularly. I'm not even sure that I know what loneliness feels like or if I'm capable of experiencing it. This is very personal and subjective. I'm mostly writing it just to see if other introverts feel the same or differently. If the "epidemic" is an "extrovert's epidemic" or I'm just, for lack of a better term, completely fucked in the head with an actual mental disorder that prevents me from ever feeling the slightest desire to connect with others, even following prolonged periods of isolation.

bubblic 2y ago
That's very interesting and I wonder if it is related to your physical fitness? Social interaction and going out does require more from your body and I wonder if this is something you can train for like you train your muscles

obscurette 2y ago

I'm in my sixties and can compare my life in seventies with the life of my kids (in late twenties now) and the life of kids nowadays. The obvious difference is that people nowadays don't have to interact with too many different people. They can totally ignore most of the world without any consequences, but this wasn't the case when I grew up. I had the myriad of relatives, cousins etc you had to interact with. In lot of cases this was awkward for me as introverted nerd, but I learned a lot from it. Without this need and practice I can totally see myself being lonely single in later life, not as father of three, grandfather of two, member of several communities etc I am now.