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> The EU single market is largely a myth from the perspective of wanting to start a successful company that can compete internationally. It's not any easier now

by caseyy 2y ago

> The EU single market is largely a myth from the perspective of wanting to start a successful company that can compete internationally. It's not any easier now than it was before the EU existed. This is simply not true. There is freedom of movement for workers which means it's easy to recruit top talent across the continent. Remote work is also much simplified. There's no friction moving goods and company assets across borders. The regulatory environment is significantly unified under the EU so there are few regulatory risks for companies growing outside their country within the region. Every EU company also has access to the entire continent's consumer base – 450 million residents, which is 50% more than the US. This benefits many EU tech companies – Spotify, Revolut, Klarna, Bolt Mobility, Wise, N26, and so on and on and on. > EU citizens like American companies As an EU citizen, I don't bank with an American company, I don't drive an American car, I don't shop in American grocery stores nor is importing many American foods allowed on safety grounds, I don't buy American fuel, my private health insurance isn't American, and so on and forth. I only buy American tech where there isn't a more competitive Chinese alternative. I'm not against the US in any way, shape or form. I just don't think we think about the US in the EU as much as you think. You are right in the sense that the European way of life is very different from the US way of life and we don't care that much for the economy. Yet Europe is still home to some of the largest stock markets in the world including LSE, Euronext, FSE, SIX Swiss, etc. We just don't value it as highly as other aspects in life – there is a strong sentiment of rejection of the rat race, growth of shareholder value at all costs, and other such American things in Europe. Perhaps it would benefit you to first examine the evidence on the ground, and then re-evaluate if your belief in American values (which I respect – totally great values in many cases) blinds you to European culture around capitalism. Europe is quite socialist, after all. Naturally, less effort will be spent on capital, more on society.

mathverse 2y ago
This is absolutely not true. Moving across Europe is significantly harder than in US. On top of that companies hiring across Europe need to go B2B or EoR. The countries are absolutely not harmonised in terms of regulations, labor law or employing people. I am sorry but you absolutely have no clue what you are talking about.
- atq2119 2y ago
  Moving across Europe may be harder than moving across the US. But moving across Europe (at least the EU) today is much easier than it was 40 years ago, pre-EU.
  - rdm_blackhole 2y ago
    It is much easier now but that is not what was sold to the people of the EU. We were told you could easily move to another country. The fact is that in some case you can and in others you cant. So on that front, the promise of freedom of movement is if not broken one not reality either.
  - Epa095 2y ago
    I agree, it's definitely much easier than it was. But when comparing EU to USA and asking 'why', I think it's extremely important to remember how much less of a single market Europe is than the US/China.
  - jokethrowaway 2y ago
    The bureaucracy can be a nightmare. Ironically one of the best country to move to pre-brexit was the UK. I did that without a lawyer. My other moves across EU needed a lawyer to sort out the local applications and required months ahead bookings. I also had all sort of stupid issues which prolonged one immigration situation for 3 years. I complained to the EU the host country was in violation of EU rules and they came back after 2 years saying it was my problem and that the host country was free to do whatever. The EU is an absolute joke and a bureaucrauts' dream, no wonder our economy shrunk to half the USA's in the last 10 years.
  - caseyy 2y ago
    Yes, that was the claim I responded to as well. Non-EU vs EU.
rdm_blackhole 2y ago
> This is simply not true. There is freedom of movement for workers which means it's easy to recruit top talent across the continent. Remote work is also much simplified. There's no friction moving goods and company assets across borders. There is absolute friction for people to even move across the borders. I moved to Sweden a few years ago and it took 8 months before I was fully part of the system. Now I am looking to move to Norway, and it's going to be the same ordeal. There are countries where you can just show up with your bags and start living there but it doesn't apply to all of them. So good luck recruiting talent, when the talent has to jump through hoops to get an ID card or open a bank account or even rent an apartment. > The regulatory environment is significantly unified under the EU so there are few regulatory risks for companies growing outside their country within the region. Every EU company also has access to the entire continent's consumer base – 450 million residents, which is 50% more than the US. It's not about regulatory risk but about overheads. The rules for selling cross border are vague and opaque and you need a PHD just to make sure that you comply with all the regulations or a good lawyer. Yes, in theory you can reach 450M customers, in practice much less so. > I just don't think we think about the US in the EU as much as you think. Maybe you don't but I can assure you that our leaders think of the US for the simple reason that the EU is not in position of strength at the moment. Case and point, the EU leadership is scrambling to avoid Trump starting a trade war with the EU while also trying to placate China who is also starting to show it's strength. If we were in a position of strength, things would be different but the EU simply does not have the muscle to put up a fight. The EU has stopped investing it's its armies and can barely help Ukraine. It has some tech companies but an order of magnitude less than the US. It is currently losing the space race against the US and China and it obliterated it's industrial base. All of this is going to come back to haunt us at some point and not in a good way. > Spotify, Revolut, Klarna, Bolt Mobility, Wise, N26, You have to realize that most of the businesses you mentioned are completely dependent on American infrastructure. Where do you think that Klarna et al are deploying their applications? On Hetzner? No on AWS or GCP or Azure. How do you get access to those applications? Through the app store or Google play which both belong to American companies. Who is driving the innovation in AI , self driving cars, robotics? No the EU. > You are right in the sense that the European way of life is very different from the US way of life and we don't care that much for the economy. Yet Europe is still home to some of the largest stock markets in the world including LSE, Euronext, FSE, SIX Swiss, etc. We just don't value it as highly as other aspects in life – there is a strong sentiment of rejection of the rat race, growth of shareholder value at all costs, and other such American things in Europe. You don't care about the economy until your government services start shutting down because the economy is in the dumpster due to 20 years of under-investments and over taxation. If productivity does not go up, if people don't care as you said then the outcome is stagnation and a decline of quality of life. The services you rely on are paid for by the taxes raised on the companies of Europe. Who is going to fund the European lifestyle when companies decide to leave the EU taking their profits and taxes elsewhere because the EU is smothering them with rules and regulations?
chewz 2y ago
> Yet Europe is still home to some of the largest stock markets in the world including LSE, Euronext, FSE, SIX Swiss, etc. Total valuation of LSE Euronext is laughable compared to NYSE or Nasdaq. (5,7 vs 30 + 16 trillion USD). Not to mention that largest European company is producing scarfs and handbags vs Nvidia, Apple or Amazon. It is XIX century vs XXI century comparing EU to US.
- xenospn 2y ago
  I thought the largest European company is making a miracle drug that is making fat Americans less fat?
  - rangestransform 2y ago
    IIRC novo nordisk is worth more than the rest of the danish gdp combined
  - caseyy 2y ago
    Novo Nordisk also makes cheaper insulin which probably keeps Eli Lilly in check in free markets. Come to think of it, Airbus is a similar example of European competition with the US that keeps the unfettered capitalist competitor in check. Boeing stands to lose something if there is a competitor waiting to eat their market share. Of course, the US is a bit protectionist so free market rules don’t always apply there. But they do in many other parts of the world.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Not for long. There are a lot of similar drugs, some already on the market and others in the pipeline. Recent clinical trials have shown that Eli Lilly's Zepbound (tirzepatide) is superior to Novo Nordisk's Wegovy (semaglutide). https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lillys-zepboundr-tirzepatide-superior-wegovyr-semaglutide-head https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-detail...
vv_ 2y ago
> There is freedom of movement for workers which means it's easy to recruit top talent across the continent. It might be possible, but it’s not easy and is rarely done outside a few select countries, such as Switzerland. I’ve received offers from recruiters in Poland and Germany, but most of them seem to be trying to cut labor costs since hiring a foreign worker is often cheaper than employing a domestic one. However, when factoring in cost-of-living adjustments, these opportunities aren’t very appealing. The same principle applies in reverse; for instance, a German wouldn’t move to Lithuania for work because the wages there are significantly lower. > Remote work is also much simplified. If I’m employed in Lithuania and want to work remotely in Germany, I can only do so for less than 50% of the calendar year. Otherwise, I’d need to be employed in Germany. As far as I know, this restriction doesn’t apply in the United States. > The regulatory environment is significantly unified under the EU so there are few regulatory risks for companies growing outside their country within the region. The same applies to the United States, which is the point of comparison for the EU in this case. Additionally, this is highly dependent on the industry you’re targeting, as the requirements can vary significantly for certain products. > Every EU company also has access to the entire continent's consumer base – 450 million residents, which is 50% more than the US. In theory, Germans will buy German products, and Poles will buy Polish products. This used to be true for digital services too, such as contracting, until companies started cutting costs by looking for cheaper labor in Eastern Europe.
- Reimersholme 2y ago
  [dead]
- caseyy 2y ago
  I’ve worked all over Europe in the games industry as did some of my long-term friends. Relocating for employment is a broader discussion but from a regulatory perspective, it just involves driving a car. No visas, no national insurance registration, no right to work worries, etc. Yes, salaries vary but not much in companies hiring at the global level. The point of comparison was not the US, but pre-EU Europe as the claim in the comment I responded to was that the single market is a myth. It is not. I don’t think Germans buy German, Poles buy Polish, etc. Many Europeans drive German cars and many play Polish games like Cyberpunk 2077, French games like Dishonored and what Ubisoft makes. Many use Scandinavian banks and so on. Regarding employment, you are right that it is still not effortless, but you can often be employed in one EU country and live in another. This used to be called being a frontier worker I believe. With remote work, that label isn’t used anymore. But yes, living in Lithuania you’d want to be employed in Germany probably in your situation. Before Brexit, I lived in England and was employed in Italy — no problem aside from getting a taxpayer ID of sorts in Italy which was a minor hassle (mostly slow process). I really didn’t face much of the issues people present in this thread while moving around in the last few decades. Nor have my friends. One year they work in Oslo, the other in Lisbon, then in Warsaw. Some start their own companies to contract all over Europe as supplier agreements are relatively easy from a tax perspective. I think this whole moving around Europe concern is something solved by filling out some forms for 8 hours every year and maybe paying a local accountant sometimes to sort out taxes.
Cumpiler69 2y ago
>Remote work is also much simplified. No it isn't. Or more exactly, not my experience. Nobody hires remote workers in Austria for example due to labor and tax laws discouragin this. If by simplified remote work you mean B-2-B contract from rich countries hiring cheaper labor in Poland, Bulgaria, etc then sure.
senko 2y ago
Mostly agree, but this is not entirely correct: > Every EU company also has access to the entire continent's consumer base – 450 million residents, which is 50% more than the US. This benefits many EU tech companies – Spotify, Revolut, Klarna, Bolt Mobility, Wise, N26, and so on and on and on. Here are two examples: Spotify, a Swedish company, had to go country-by-country to cover the EU because each country has separate regulatory bodies (eg GEMA in Germany,ZAMP in Croatia, etc...). It was in the US a lot earlier than in some EU countries. Klarna is still not available in my country (Croatia). The banking union is not there yet and Croatia is too small a market (understandably). So, by mere fact of being in the EU, Klarna does not cover the entire EU.

by caseyy 2y ago

mathverse 2y ago

This is absolutely not true. Moving across Europe is significantly harder than in US. On top of that companies hiring across Europe need to go B2B or EoR. The countries are absolutely not harmonised in terms of regulations, labor law or employing people. I am sorry but you absolutely have no clue what you are talking about.

atq2119 2y ago
Moving across Europe may be harder than moving across the US. But moving across Europe (at least the EU) today is much easier than it was 40 years ago, pre-EU.
- rdm_blackhole 2y ago
  It is much easier now but that is not what was sold to the people of the EU. We were told you could easily move to another country. The fact is that in some case you can and in others you cant. So on that front, the promise of freedom of movement is if not broken one not reality either.
- Epa095 2y ago
  I agree, it's definitely much easier than it was. But when comparing EU to USA and asking 'why', I think it's extremely important to remember how much less of a single market Europe is than the US/China.
- jokethrowaway 2y ago
  The bureaucracy can be a nightmare. Ironically one of the best country to move to pre-brexit was the UK. I did that without a lawyer. My other moves across EU needed a lawyer to sort out the local applications and required months ahead bookings. I also had all sort of stupid issues which prolonged one immigration situation for 3 years. I complained to the EU the host country was in violation of EU rules and they came back after 2 years saying it was my problem and that the host country was free to do whatever. The EU is an absolute joke and a bureaucrauts' dream, no wonder our economy shrunk to half the USA's in the last 10 years.
- caseyy 2y ago
  Yes, that was the claim I responded to as well. Non-EU vs EU.

rdm_blackhole 2y ago

> This is simply not true. There is freedom of movement for workers which means it's easy to recruit top talent across the continent. Remote work is also much simplified. There's no friction moving goods and company assets across borders. There is absolute friction for people to even move across the borders. I moved to Sweden a few years ago and it took 8 months before I was fully part of the system. Now I am looking to move to Norway, and it's going to be the same ordeal. There are countries where you can just show up with your bags and start living there but it doesn't apply to all of them. So good luck recruiting talent, when the talent has to jump through hoops to get an ID card or open a bank account or even rent an apartment. > The regulatory environment is significantly unified under the EU so there are few regulatory risks for companies growing outside their country within the region. Every EU company also has access to the entire continent's consumer base – 450 million residents, which is 50% more than the US. It's not about regulatory risk but about overheads. The rules for selling cross border are vague and opaque and you need a PHD just to make sure that you comply with all the regulations or a good lawyer. Yes, in theory you can reach 450M customers, in practice much less so. > I just don't think we think about the US in the EU as much as you think. Maybe you don't but I can assure you that our leaders think of the US for the simple reason that the EU is not in position of strength at the moment. Case and point, the EU leadership is scrambling to avoid Trump starting a trade war with the EU while also trying to placate China who is also starting to show it's strength. If we were in a position of strength, things would be different but the EU simply does not have the muscle to put up a fight. The EU has stopped investing it's its armies and can barely help Ukraine. It has some tech companies but an order of magnitude less than the US. It is currently losing the space race against the US and China and it obliterated it's industrial base. All of this is going to come back to haunt us at some point and not in a good way. > Spotify, Revolut, Klarna, Bolt Mobility, Wise, N26, You have to realize that most of the businesses you mentioned are completely dependent on American infrastructure. Where do you think that Klarna et al are deploying their applications? On Hetzner? No on AWS or GCP or Azure. How do you get access to those applications? Through the app store or Google play which both belong to American companies. Who is driving the innovation in AI , self driving cars, robotics? No the EU. > You are right in the sense that the European way of life is very different from the US way of life and we don't care that much for the economy. Yet Europe is still home to some of the largest stock markets in the world including LSE, Euronext, FSE, SIX Swiss, etc. We just don't value it as highly as other aspects in life – there is a strong sentiment of rejection of the rat race, growth of shareholder value at all costs, and other such American things in Europe. You don't care about the economy until your government services start shutting down because the economy is in the dumpster due to 20 years of under-investments and over taxation. If productivity does not go up, if people don't care as you said then the outcome is stagnation and a decline of quality of life. The services you rely on are paid for by the taxes raised on the companies of Europe. Who is going to fund the European lifestyle when companies decide to leave the EU taking their profits and taxes elsewhere because the EU is smothering them with rules and regulations?

chewz 2y ago

> Yet Europe is still home to some of the largest stock markets in the world including LSE, Euronext, FSE, SIX Swiss, etc. Total valuation of LSE Euronext is laughable compared to NYSE or Nasdaq. (5,7 vs 30 + 16 trillion USD). Not to mention that largest European company is producing scarfs and handbags vs Nvidia, Apple or Amazon. It is XIX century vs XXI century comparing EU to US.

xenospn 2y ago
I thought the largest European company is making a miracle drug that is making fat Americans less fat?
- rangestransform 2y ago
  IIRC novo nordisk is worth more than the rest of the danish gdp combined
- caseyy 2y ago
  Novo Nordisk also makes cheaper insulin which probably keeps Eli Lilly in check in free markets. Come to think of it, Airbus is a similar example of European competition with the US that keeps the unfettered capitalist competitor in check. Boeing stands to lose something if there is a competitor waiting to eat their market share. Of course, the US is a bit protectionist so free market rules don’t always apply there. But they do in many other parts of the world.
- nradov 2y ago
  Not for long. There are a lot of similar drugs, some already on the market and others in the pipeline. Recent clinical trials have shown that Eli Lilly's Zepbound (tirzepatide) is superior to Novo Nordisk's Wegovy (semaglutide). https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lillys-zepboundr-tirzepatide-superior-wegovyr-semaglutide-head https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-detail...

vv_ 2y ago

> There is freedom of movement for workers which means it's easy to recruit top talent across the continent. It might be possible, but it’s not easy and is rarely done outside a few select countries, such as Switzerland. I’ve received offers from recruiters in Poland and Germany, but most of them seem to be trying to cut labor costs since hiring a foreign worker is often cheaper than employing a domestic one. However, when factoring in cost-of-living adjustments, these opportunities aren’t very appealing. The same principle applies in reverse; for instance, a German wouldn’t move to Lithuania for work because the wages there are significantly lower. > Remote work is also much simplified. If I’m employed in Lithuania and want to work remotely in Germany, I can only do so for less than 50% of the calendar year. Otherwise, I’d need to be employed in Germany. As far as I know, this restriction doesn’t apply in the United States. > The regulatory environment is significantly unified under the EU so there are few regulatory risks for companies growing outside their country within the region. The same applies to the United States, which is the point of comparison for the EU in this case. Additionally, this is highly dependent on the industry you’re targeting, as the requirements can vary significantly for certain products. > Every EU company also has access to the entire continent's consumer base – 450 million residents, which is 50% more than the US. In theory, Germans will buy German products, and Poles will buy Polish products. This used to be true for digital services too, such as contracting, until companies started cutting costs by looking for cheaper labor in Eastern Europe.

Reimersholme 2y ago
[dead]
caseyy 2y ago
I’ve worked all over Europe in the games industry as did some of my long-term friends. Relocating for employment is a broader discussion but from a regulatory perspective, it just involves driving a car. No visas, no national insurance registration, no right to work worries, etc. Yes, salaries vary but not much in companies hiring at the global level. The point of comparison was not the US, but pre-EU Europe as the claim in the comment I responded to was that the single market is a myth. It is not. I don’t think Germans buy German, Poles buy Polish, etc. Many Europeans drive German cars and many play Polish games like Cyberpunk 2077, French games like Dishonored and what Ubisoft makes. Many use Scandinavian banks and so on. Regarding employment, you are right that it is still not effortless, but you can often be employed in one EU country and live in another. This used to be called being a frontier worker I believe. With remote work, that label isn’t used anymore. But yes, living in Lithuania you’d want to be employed in Germany probably in your situation. Before Brexit, I lived in England and was employed in Italy — no problem aside from getting a taxpayer ID of sorts in Italy which was a minor hassle (mostly slow process). I really didn’t face much of the issues people present in this thread while moving around in the last few decades. Nor have my friends. One year they work in Oslo, the other in Lisbon, then in Warsaw. Some start their own companies to contract all over Europe as supplier agreements are relatively easy from a tax perspective. I think this whole moving around Europe concern is something solved by filling out some forms for 8 hours every year and maybe paying a local accountant sometimes to sort out taxes.

Cumpiler69 2y ago

>Remote work is also much simplified. No it isn't. Or more exactly, not my experience. Nobody hires remote workers in Austria for example due to labor and tax laws discouragin this. If by simplified remote work you mean B-2-B contract from rich countries hiring cheaper labor in Poland, Bulgaria, etc then sure.

senko 2y ago

Mostly agree, but this is not entirely correct: > Every EU company also has access to the entire continent's consumer base – 450 million residents, which is 50% more than the US. This benefits many EU tech companies – Spotify, Revolut, Klarna, Bolt Mobility, Wise, N26, and so on and on and on. Here are two examples: Spotify, a Swedish company, had to go country-by-country to cover the EU because each country has separate regulatory bodies (eg GEMA in Germany,ZAMP in Croatia, etc...). It was in the US a lot earlier than in some EU countries. Klarna is still not available in my country (Croatia). The banking union is not there yet and Croatia is too small a market (understandably). So, by mere fact of being in the EU, Klarna does not cover the entire EU.