14 ms·

It seemed to me that it was using the dependant variable intentionally so that it could build up to the twist: actually it's all about race. To be fair, the tw

It seemed to me that it was using the dependant variable intentionally so that it could build up to the twist: actually it's all about race. To be fair, the twist did get me. I thought it was leading up to discussing injury rates, or health in old age. Since I'm not from the US, the pivot to discussing race wasn't very interesting/relevant to me.

erikerikson 2y ago
I have the thought that racial divisions are even more stark elsewhere, although in cases across different lines. I would, for example expect a lot more Chinese in to positions in that country alongside far lower diversity. Is it not this way? How about where you are from, since you're "not from the US"?
- Filligree 2y ago
  Divisions here are between the Irish, British, French, Italians and so on -- each with their own prejudices, to say nothing of people coming from eastern Europe. Each and every one of these groupings have faced discrimination in one context or another, and all of them would be described as 'white' in American terms. Actual Asian people are too far out of context to really be considered on more than an individual basis; there aren't a lot of them here.
- kstenerud 2y ago
  Japanese vs Brazilians Germans vs Turks Han Chinese vs non-Han Chinese Canada vs first nations Many countries have their racial underclasses.
- esperent 2y ago
  > I have the thought that racial divisions are even more stark elsewhere While race is of course an issue in all countries, few countries hold on to their racial divide as strongly as the US. Nonetheless, I didn't mean that discussion about race wasn't relevant or interesting to me. I simply meant that discussion about the racial divides in the US aren't relevant to me. Since I hear and read about US specific race issues a lot I usually avoid the topic and was a bit annoyed that this post baited me into investing so much time before it revealed what it was about.
- lmm 2y ago
  Most countries have ethnic divisions, but they're not the US race categories and not based on skin colour. I am of my ethnicity and this affected how I was treated, whereas the US flattens that to "white" and treats me as such. (More baffling is how the US is in complete denial of its class system - so much so that anyone who tries to talk about class is immediately told they're talking about race)
  - wruza 2y ago
    Exactly. Looking from outside, US just paints literal colors over what is really a multitude of ethnicities and cultures and thinks it’s progressive and inclusive. This black, this black, this white, this white, this asian. Awesome reduction.
    - sojournerc 2y ago
      You similarly reduced all Americans to a stereotype with this comment. If you get your idea of Americans from internet discourse, you may come away with this impression, but it's a shallow view of a diverse country.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
      Looking at it from the inside as a black American, I 100% agree with you. My experience as a black person in the US has been wildly different from someone who grew up in the 'hood or someone living with his nephew in Bel Air :-) But yet, we're all mushed into the same category and expected to think alike and have the same ambitions. It's frustrating, but there's not a whole lot that I can do about it other than engage with people using my own perspective.
  - erikerikson 2y ago
    FWIW: while you are absolutely correct that many activists will replace class discussions with racial assertions, it is not universal here. Many of us are quite aware of and discuss our extreme divides and the mechanisms that keep ratcheting them, perhaps including this redirection habit.
turbojet1321 2y ago
I agree, it was bit of a bait and switch and (also as a non-American) the racial twist took me by surprise. The actual data would still have made as much (or more) sense if it was white vs blue collar, but I suppose no one would be surprised by that, and wouldn't have clicked through long enough for the "switch" to hit.
kdazzle 2y ago
Ha, I’ve heard a few Dutch say that American style racism didnt really apply to them, but then later they say that some person isn’t Dutch because they aren’t white. All in the workplace. I think it’s just not as top of mind in other places, but its there.
- plufz 2y ago
  I think it is a little of both. I’m not American, but as a bystander it seems quite obvious that race is important in the US because of how important slavery has been in your culture (founding fathers, civil war, the history of your political parties, income distribution today, etc). But I also have the impression that you have more knowledge of racism than some other countries. I mean the Dutch obviously have a horrific racist history.
throwaway2037 2y ago
> Since I'm not from the US, the pivot to discussing race wasn't very interesting/relevant to me. Does your home country have any minorities that are economically lower class? And, importantly, are they visibly identifiable, like different skin colour? I assume yes -- most countries have them if you look close enough. Would it be more interesting if the data were viewed through the lense of these different ethnic groups in your country?
- graemep 2y ago
  In the UK different ethnic minorities do very differently economically (some better than the majority[1]) but this does not follow visible differences. Indians do a lot better economically than Bangladeshis, black Africans better than black Caribbeans, etc. People from some Eastern European countries do a lot worse than visible minorities. Of the white minorities the Irish were traditionally close to the bottom of the heap historically, but for the last few decades have done well, especially educationally, probably boosted by the quality of Catholic schools (religious schools can receive state funding here and many are therefore free to attend). Its clearly mostly to do with lack of intergenerational social mobility. Its worth noting that the group doing worst educationally in the UK are white working class boys. In Sri Lanka which is also my "home" country for a different definition of home the minorities are not "economically lower class" but have faced significant racism and religious discrimination (both sometimes violent) - but have also done the same themselves. [1] All numbers I know of that compare ethnic groups lump the three biggest native groups into one, "white British".
  - nox101 2y ago
    It's similar in the USA. Black Americans do poorly. Black Nigerian immigrants to great. They're both black so it's evidence race has little to do with whatever the problems of class are but a certain segment of vocal people ignore this evidence.
    - dahart 2y ago
      If true, it’s not necessarily evidence of race being independent of class, it would only be evidence of color being independent of class. If true, it might to some degree be the opposite of what you claim, it might be evidence of race mattering since Americans and Nigerians though they might share some physical traits, are now from different countries for many generations. Is it true? I’d love to see this evidence, can you link to some? There is a literal mountain of evidence that both color and race in the US correlate negatively with outcomes, perhaps in differing amounts, but if you ignore that, you’re also ignoring some evidence. There a lot of possible confounding reasons why one black group might fare better than another on average in the US, and that means that if you care about being accurate about whether race and class are linked, then it’s extremely difficult to separate them, and nearly impossible to declare they’re not linked. The biggest problem with your claim is that race and class absolutely were linked in the past without question, when blacks were slaves, and we have never had a period in US history where the socioeconomic outcomes of blacks matched whites on average. The situation has improved, but we have plenty of evidence we’re not there yet, and so it’s impossible and almost certainly wrong to claim that either race or color has little to do with class.
graemep 2y ago
Its apparent very early on that it is about the US, and everything in the US is all about race. Race is far more important in the US: it seems to be fundamental to people's identity and how they are regarded in a way that is difficult to grasp from outside. It is strange to me that people who accept self-identity of gender regard race as an immutable inherited characteristic. The nearest parallel is caste in India. It is inherited, immutable and hierarchical.
- defrost 2y ago
  The US is not homogeneous and the people within the US most likely to regard race as an all important immutable inherited characteristic are also largely those least likely to accept self-identity of gender. That at least is my coarse observation as an outsider and I stressed qualifiers as there are no absolutes here, just fuzzy clouds of human attributes with some overlaps and no hard borders. The types of US media that routinely dog whistles race issues and stereotype low IQ gun happy criminal types are pretty much the same media streams that mock trans identity, wokeness, and alphabet classification.
  - lmm 2y ago
    > The types of US media that routinely dog whistles race issues and stereotype low IQ gun happy criminal types That's the other side from the one that most strongly regards "race as an all important immutable inherited characteristic" as far as I can see.
  - graemep 2y ago
    > the people within the US most likely to regard race as an all important immutable inherited characteristic are also largely those least likely to accept self-identity of gender. I am not convinced. Even Americans who accept gender self-identity AND claim to be anti-racist usually have a problem with regarding race as a superficial characteristic, and rarely seem to accept people self-identifying as a different race to their "real" one. > The types of US media that routinely dog whistles race issues and stereotype low IQ gun happy criminal types are pretty much the same media streams that mock trans identity, wokeness, and alphabet classification. My point is that BOTH sides in the US regard race as an immutable fundamental characteristic.

erikerikson 2y ago

I have the thought that racial divisions are even more stark elsewhere, although in cases across different lines. I would, for example expect a lot more Chinese in to positions in that country alongside far lower diversity. Is it not this way? How about where you are from, since you're "not from the US"?

Filligree 2y ago
Divisions here are between the Irish, British, French, Italians and so on -- each with their own prejudices, to say nothing of people coming from eastern Europe. Each and every one of these groupings have faced discrimination in one context or another, and all of them would be described as 'white' in American terms. Actual Asian people are too far out of context to really be considered on more than an individual basis; there aren't a lot of them here.
kstenerud 2y ago
Japanese vs Brazilians Germans vs Turks Han Chinese vs non-Han Chinese Canada vs first nations Many countries have their racial underclasses.
esperent 2y ago
> I have the thought that racial divisions are even more stark elsewhere While race is of course an issue in all countries, few countries hold on to their racial divide as strongly as the US. Nonetheless, I didn't mean that discussion about race wasn't relevant or interesting to me. I simply meant that discussion about the racial divides in the US aren't relevant to me. Since I hear and read about US specific race issues a lot I usually avoid the topic and was a bit annoyed that this post baited me into investing so much time before it revealed what it was about.
lmm 2y ago
Most countries have ethnic divisions, but they're not the US race categories and not based on skin colour. I am of my ethnicity and this affected how I was treated, whereas the US flattens that to "white" and treats me as such. (More baffling is how the US is in complete denial of its class system - so much so that anyone who tries to talk about class is immediately told they're talking about race)
- wruza 2y ago
  Exactly. Looking from outside, US just paints literal colors over what is really a multitude of ethnicities and cultures and thinks it’s progressive and inclusive. This black, this black, this white, this white, this asian. Awesome reduction.
  - sojournerc 2y ago
    You similarly reduced all Americans to a stereotype with this comment. If you get your idea of Americans from internet discourse, you may come away with this impression, but it's a shallow view of a diverse country.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    Looking at it from the inside as a black American, I 100% agree with you. My experience as a black person in the US has been wildly different from someone who grew up in the 'hood or someone living with his nephew in Bel Air :-) But yet, we're all mushed into the same category and expected to think alike and have the same ambitions. It's frustrating, but there's not a whole lot that I can do about it other than engage with people using my own perspective.
- erikerikson 2y ago
  FWIW: while you are absolutely correct that many activists will replace class discussions with racial assertions, it is not universal here. Many of us are quite aware of and discuss our extreme divides and the mechanisms that keep ratcheting them, perhaps including this redirection habit.

turbojet1321 2y ago

I agree, it was bit of a bait and switch and (also as a non-American) the racial twist took me by surprise. The actual data would still have made as much (or more) sense if it was white vs blue collar, but I suppose no one would be surprised by that, and wouldn't have clicked through long enough for the "switch" to hit.

kdazzle 2y ago

Ha, I’ve heard a few Dutch say that American style racism didnt really apply to them, but then later they say that some person isn’t Dutch because they aren’t white. All in the workplace. I think it’s just not as top of mind in other places, but its there.

plufz 2y ago
I think it is a little of both. I’m not American, but as a bystander it seems quite obvious that race is important in the US because of how important slavery has been in your culture (founding fathers, civil war, the history of your political parties, income distribution today, etc). But I also have the impression that you have more knowledge of racism than some other countries. I mean the Dutch obviously have a horrific racist history.

throwaway2037 2y ago

> Since I'm not from the US, the pivot to discussing race wasn't very interesting/relevant to me. Does your home country have any minorities that are economically lower class? And, importantly, are they visibly identifiable, like different skin colour? I assume yes -- most countries have them if you look close enough. Would it be more interesting if the data were viewed through the lense of these different ethnic groups in your country?

graemep 2y ago
In the UK different ethnic minorities do very differently economically (some better than the majority[1]) but this does not follow visible differences. Indians do a lot better economically than Bangladeshis, black Africans better than black Caribbeans, etc. People from some Eastern European countries do a lot worse than visible minorities. Of the white minorities the Irish were traditionally close to the bottom of the heap historically, but for the last few decades have done well, especially educationally, probably boosted by the quality of Catholic schools (religious schools can receive state funding here and many are therefore free to attend). Its clearly mostly to do with lack of intergenerational social mobility. Its worth noting that the group doing worst educationally in the UK are white working class boys. In Sri Lanka which is also my "home" country for a different definition of home the minorities are not "economically lower class" but have faced significant racism and religious discrimination (both sometimes violent) - but have also done the same themselves. [1] All numbers I know of that compare ethnic groups lump the three biggest native groups into one, "white British".
- nox101 2y ago
  It's similar in the USA. Black Americans do poorly. Black Nigerian immigrants to great. They're both black so it's evidence race has little to do with whatever the problems of class are but a certain segment of vocal people ignore this evidence.
  - dahart 2y ago
    If true, it’s not necessarily evidence of race being independent of class, it would only be evidence of color being independent of class. If true, it might to some degree be the opposite of what you claim, it might be evidence of race mattering since Americans and Nigerians though they might share some physical traits, are now from different countries for many generations. Is it true? I’d love to see this evidence, can you link to some? There is a literal mountain of evidence that both color and race in the US correlate negatively with outcomes, perhaps in differing amounts, but if you ignore that, you’re also ignoring some evidence. There a lot of possible confounding reasons why one black group might fare better than another on average in the US, and that means that if you care about being accurate about whether race and class are linked, then it’s extremely difficult to separate them, and nearly impossible to declare they’re not linked. The biggest problem with your claim is that race and class absolutely were linked in the past without question, when blacks were slaves, and we have never had a period in US history where the socioeconomic outcomes of blacks matched whites on average. The situation has improved, but we have plenty of evidence we’re not there yet, and so it’s impossible and almost certainly wrong to claim that either race or color has little to do with class.

graemep 2y ago

Its apparent very early on that it is about the US, and everything in the US is all about race. Race is far more important in the US: it seems to be fundamental to people's identity and how they are regarded in a way that is difficult to grasp from outside. It is strange to me that people who accept self-identity of gender regard race as an immutable inherited characteristic. The nearest parallel is caste in India. It is inherited, immutable and hierarchical.

defrost 2y ago
The US is not homogeneous and the people within the US most likely to regard race as an all important immutable inherited characteristic are also largely those least likely to accept self-identity of gender. That at least is my coarse observation as an outsider and I stressed qualifiers as there are no absolutes here, just fuzzy clouds of human attributes with some overlaps and no hard borders. The types of US media that routinely dog whistles race issues and stereotype low IQ gun happy criminal types are pretty much the same media streams that mock trans identity, wokeness, and alphabet classification.
- lmm 2y ago
  > The types of US media that routinely dog whistles race issues and stereotype low IQ gun happy criminal types That's the other side from the one that most strongly regards "race as an all important immutable inherited characteristic" as far as I can see.
- graemep 2y ago
  > the people within the US most likely to regard race as an all important immutable inherited characteristic are also largely those least likely to accept self-identity of gender. I am not convinced. Even Americans who accept gender self-identity AND claim to be anti-racist usually have a problem with regarding race as a superficial characteristic, and rarely seem to accept people self-identifying as a different race to their "real" one. > The types of US media that routinely dog whistles race issues and stereotype low IQ gun happy criminal types are pretty much the same media streams that mock trans identity, wokeness, and alphabet classification. My point is that BOTH sides in the US regard race as an immutable fundamental characteristic.