8 ms·
Interesting, but why bother. Pi's were great when they were cheap, but one can get a better performing Intel N100 box for a similar price and power consumption
by RachelF 2y ago
Interesting, but why bother. Pi's were great when they were cheap, but one can get a better performing Intel N100 box for a similar price and power consumption now.
The only reason I can think of to use a Pi is GPIO.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- spintin 2y ago[dead]
- Maxious 2y agoIt just works. Plenty of Rockchip bargains out there but how long are they supported https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2024/popular-rockchip-sbc-distro-limbo-after-maintainer-burns-out https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2024/popular-rockchip-sbc-... Meanwhile the original Pi model only just went EoL https://endoflife.date/raspberry-pi https://endoflife.date/raspberry-pi
- danielheath 2y agoThe n100 is an intel board and all the parts used in the cheap nucs I have tried are supported on quite old mainline kernels. At about twice the price for just the pi, I got a n100 machine (with a case and power supply and 500mb ssd and 16gb ram). Draws about 10 watts, is faster on every axis, and once you setup the pi with a case/psu it’s very close to the same price.
- mikae1 2y ago> Draws about 10 watts Idling?
- mikae1 2y agoOK. EU prices seems to be at least two times higher for a N100 mini PC. Energy consumption seems to be 2x-3x higher. The RPi5 idles at ~3.5w and the N100 at 10w. But yeah, the N100 is faster. You need a power brick for the N100 box. Depends on what you need. The N100 isn't always "better".
- danielheath 2y ago10 watts isn't idling, that's working. The chip has a TDP of 6 watts, but the RAM uses some too. I turn mine down to a lower clock speed, which takes off about 3w. > You need a power brick for the N100 box. Yes, but it was included (along with the case) for $106 USD, delivered. Granted, that was on special, but AliExpress has sales that get them down to $115 USD pretty regularly.
- VBprogrammer 2y agoI find it quite interesting that we're beyond the point of having an Intel processor being a massive advantage. I think 10 years ago most people would have jumped at an x86 processor with similar specs to the equivalent Raspberry Pi.
- danielheath 2y agoAs someone who runs a lot of ARM stuff... I still find things which aren't packaged for ARM/linux with surprising frequency.
- VBprogrammer 2y agoI have an M1 at work. Anything off the beaten path fills me with dread and / or poor performance because I end up emulating it.
- zokier 2y agoIntel Edison was released 10 years ago.
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- chithanh 2y agoODROID-M1 with RK3568B2 is supported until 2036 at least https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=44218 https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=44218 That a distro's principal maintainer steps down is unfortunate for anyone who is downstream from them, but it is not the end of the world. As the article mentions, other distros for Rockchip continue to exist.
- Maxious 2y agoFrom the same forum: > the official Linux kernel is more based on SoC vendor's BSP (Board Support Package) that can utilise full SoC features. And Hardkernel is able to consult with Rockchip in case we found missing SoC features only when the issue is discovered in their BSP, otherwise it's very hard. Therefore, we are managing the Linux kernel with most similar OS with the version from Rockchip, even Ubuntu 20.04 is not from Rockchip. https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=212&t=47522 https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=212&t=47522 > What are not working: USB 3.0 host ports > The images with upstream kernel would not be stable enough and features are not fully supported, so please do not use this image for your important project or to store important data. https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=217&t=44462 https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=217&t=44462 >The only thing missing is a firmware capable of booting the operating system. https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?p=374526#p374526 https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?p=374526#p374526
- chithanh 2y agoThat was the situation in 2022 and early 2023. Since late 2023, ODROID-M1 is supported by mainline u-boot (odroid-m1-rk3568 target) and you can also use a mainline kernel (6.4 or later) which provides working USB 3.0.
- fransje26 2y agoIs the GPU also supported when using a mainline kernel?
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- a_t48 2y agoGPIO - I have a small "robot" running off of a Pi5, this will speed up compile times.
- heresie-dabord 2y agoN100 is inexpensive, has impressive performance, and can support 16+ GB RAM. That said, I do also use an R.Pi 4 and an R.Pi 400. The significant advantages of the R.Pi 4 and R.Pi 5 are = R.Pi is a learning-first platform = current Debian supported "out-of-the-box" with a custom D.E. and Wayland = excellent community for software and hardware = the R.Pi 400 (and the expected R.Pi 500) "keyboard computer" are unique in the marketplace, with all the community and support = R.Pi is not an X86 platform, which may be favourable depending on your project requirements
- echoangle 2y ago> current Debian supported "out-of-the-box" with a custom D.E. and Wayland I’m not sure I understand the point, because Debian supports N100 PCs natively, too. Or is a custom DE the advantage?
- heresie-dabord 2y ago> Or is a custom DE the advantage Yes, as a learning-first (teaching) platform, the custom DE is an advantage. But further, the R.Pi does not need to be an over-sized solution or lead a benchmark with a top score. It just needs to be fast enough for learning and hacking with GPIO. A computer doesn't need to have a gigahertz burst mode just to run an efficient little OS for coding. As for Wayland, it only recently became the default WM. But it is nice to have.
- ac29 2y ago> A computer doesn't need to have a gigahertz burst mode just to run an efficient little OS for coding. If efficiency is your goal, you should prefer the N100 which is built on a 7nm class process compared to the Pi 5's 16nm.
- catdog 2y ago> N100 is inexpensive, has impressive performance, and can support 16+ GB RAM. Yep runs 32 GB just fine, even if not advertised. Also great Software support as usual on the PC Platform. Also more I/O, esp. PCIe than a Pi and you actually can buy boards with standard connectors. Also at least for server type use cases x86 is most of the time probably still a lot less painful than ARM.
- Mashimo 2y agoCan you link a few that are in the Pi5 price range? Pi is ~70 EUR including ~25% VAT. Cheapest N100 I found in 5 minutes of searching was a ACEMAGIC T8 Plus for ~160 EUR. (Currently sold out)
- buckle8017 2y ago> Pi is ~70 EUR including ~25% VAT. Now add a power supply and case.
- nxpnsv 2y agoWhat if you don't need a box or power supply? And what if you like then gpio pins?
- puzzlingcaptcha 2y agoFT232H breakout board is a couple of bucks.
- thelastparadise 2y agoThank you. No one ever talks about just how easy it is to add GPIO to anything.
- RachelF 2y agoThanks for that!
- Mashimo 2y agoNo, but thank you. I put them into a 3D printer that already has all that. But I need to add a 16 or 32GB SD card. Around 10 EUR, maybe less.
- fransje26 2y agoIs it a home-built 3D printer?
- walrus01 2y agoAs a desktop, one can get a used x86-64 dell ultra small form factor quad core Intel core i5 something, 16GB RAM, something 128 to 256GB SSD on eBay for a hundred bucks... It'll have integrated video capable of driving one 4k at 60Hz as native displayport. And a decent amount of other gigabit Ethernet, usb3, analog in and out audio, etc. Yeah it'll be 7 years old but it'll still be much faster than a rpi5. Even a mediocre Intel 120GB sata3 ssd from 8 years ago will run circles around a microsdxc card in disk performance. These mostly come from corporate lease environments and have very little write wear on the ssd and are very clean. The raspberry pi is more useful if you need the gpio pins or want something really small and perfectly silent for some embedded application.
- Semaphor 2y ago> Even a mediocre Intel 120GB sata3 ssd from 8 years ago will run circles around a microsdxc card in disk performance. You don’t need a microSDXC card for the pi, you can boot it off an SSD, which is what my old PI4 does to run Proxmox Backup Server.
- walrus01 2y agoFrom a sata3 ssd in a usb3 enclosure? adds cost and complexity and cabling... I understand there's also a raspberry pi5 sata "hat" which is something like $20 and then figure at least $35 to buy a decent quality small sata3 ssd to add to it.
- Semaphor 2y agoSure, but then the DELL will already be several times bigger anyway.
- nickserv 2y agoWhen you're running off a battery and solar panels, a couple Wh makes a big difference.
- globular-toast 2y agoThe GPIO was always the point. Pis were supposed to be educational tools. People using them as cheap computers ruined it.
- baq 2y agoThey were cheap computers, so people used them as cheap computers, I don't understand your point at all. For a quite a long time they were also the de-facto standard way of making a LED blink over the internet without having to dive into the embedded space.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- catdog 2y agoWouldn't say it ruined it. People used them as cheap computers because at the time there barely were good alternatives for that cheap of a computer.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago>The GPIO was always the point. You ca get GPIO on the cheap from a Arduino, ESP8/32, or RP2040 microcontroller. RPi itself is far too wasteful for that. > People using them as cheap computers ruined it. False, industrial users using them in all commercial embedded products ruined it. Almost nobody is using RPis as cheap computers at home since they suck at that: too expensive, too underpowered and too limited in functionality to be a computer for the average joe My RPi 2 becomes an unusable stuttery mess when I open a web browser and for the price of a RPi 5 I got a used quad core Intel 8th gen laptop with 8GB of RAM and 256GB SSD which not only beats the RPi at any and all computer tasks, but it also comes with built in keyboard, 1080p monitor, battery, charger and I can take with me to do work on the go. The only thing I see the RPi good at at home is a headless PiHole/VPN or whatever, not as an actual desktop computer replacement.
- immibis 2y agoA Raspberry Pi was a full Linux computer with GPIOs. You can run whatever daemons and still control a relay board. No microcontroller fills that niche. There still isn't really anything in that niche other than single-board computers (i.e. Raspberry Pi clones) - for example, NUCs don't have GPIOs on them. Of course you can fall back to the previous standard idea - connecting an Arduino to another computer and communicating by the serial port.
- shadowpho 2y agoI’m of the same opinion now. It’s so much more pleasure to work on an n100 vs rpi4/5 too. Everything is snappy and responsive, apt-update fast
- bayindirh 2y agoAs a person who uses both, I won't leave an N100 system where I can leave a RPi5. First, the overall footprint of an RPi5 is way smaller, plus RPi is easier to cool passively than an N100, also it allows RPi5 to be lower maintenance on the longer run. Most N100 are noisier, hotter and bigger than a Pi5 (I have a smaller N100, but it's still actively cooled). When paired with a decent A2 card (e.g.: Kingston Canvas Go), the SD-card related lag disappears. Add a good external SSD, you have tons of solid state storage. At that point you can just forget it. I like my N100, and companies like GMKTec routes 2 PCIe lanes to NVMe slots allowing ~1.5GB of throughput, but for most home use, that's overkill. I rather use Pi as a server and N100 as a desktop (which is exactly what I do).
- throwup238 2y ago> When paired with a decent A2 card (e.g.: Kingston Canvas Go), the SD-card related lag disappears. Add a good external SSD, you have tons of solid state storage. At that point you can just forget it. At that point you can just underclock an N100 NUC for the same price and almost the same TDP (it's pretty much even with the SSD). Most vendors configure the CPU well into diminishing returns for marketing reasons and even a small undervolt can make them passive (the same is true of many laptops). I get the form factor issue but exposed RPis without the enclosure (more $$) are a burned out board waiting to happen. I use them in enclosed hardware that needs gpio like 3d printers but the N100 wins every other time.
- 05 2y agoEven with printers, you can connect via usb if we're talking Klipper..
- throwup238 2y agoDuet 3 with daughter boards for tool switching and multiple extruders (customized Voron 2.4)
- bayindirh 2y agoYou can't rule out a fan sucking in dusty air from side or worse, bottom of the case. Most N100 systems have too much air circulation inside to forget them in the long term. Many N100 systems come with 5W TDP as default. However, this is more of an "average" TDP. It doesn't prevent the CPU to enable its turbo and exhaust its thermal budget. Forcing it to lower envelopes via cpufreqd would work, but you're limited by your fan again, which will make everything dusty, eventually. I have found a pretty cheap completely aluminum case [0] which sucks heat from every IC and bottom of the case via silicon thermal pads. It keeps the processor at 37 degrees, cools USB bridge and power controller too. With no moving part, case is almost airtight. So, it's sitting snug and cool in that case. You can't burn RPi in that configuration. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/GeeekPi-Aluminum-Raspberry-Cooling-Thermal/dp/B0CP2DSWHD?ref_=ast_sto_dp https://www.amazon.com/GeeekPi-Aluminum-Raspberry-Cooling-Th...
- louwrentius 2y agoA Rasberry Pi 5 is no match for a tiny-mini-micro 1 litre PC at nearly the same idle power draw
- amelius 2y agoYou mean a refurbished Intel box. That's not a fair price comparison.
- pulse7 2y agoWhy buy Intel N100 with Intel Management Engine (which is disabled on US Government computers)? I rather buy RaspberryPi where I don't need to disable Intel ME by myself...
- immibis 2y agoYou just have the undocumented VideoCore which also happens to boot the system and have full access to RAM at all times...
- agilob 2y agoBecause I got a handful of them when they were cheap? 30% free faster computing? I'll take it anytime
- k_bx 2y agoGood luck writing software for one of those N100 boxes only to find out they're sold out and you now need to extend the code for new model over and over.
- bluGill 2y agoN100 is standard x86. Write generic code that runs on a generic linux kernel and you won't have to worry about if this is a N100, N200, AMD, or even something weird like a 30 year old RS6000. Well if you need GPIO you have to worry a little, but you are forced to spend an extra day to support a generic GPIO framework instead of directly writing to PI pins - that extra effort means you don't care. Even in embedded where you have contracts to ensure the same hardware will be available for a decade everyone has moved that way because eventually the hardware you rely on goes out of production and so you need to support new hardware.
- k_bx 2y agoThat's great. Now what about motherboard and all the peripherals? I have to add special code when I port from rPi4 to rPi5, code like this (in Python) for some GPIO logic: chip = None try: # rpi5 chip = gpiod.Chip("gpiochip4") except FileNotFoundError as e: # rpi4 chip = gpiod.Chip("gpiochip0") Now imagine having to support whole zoo of N100-based machines from different manufacturers? With Raspberry Pi, you can always expect to just buy more of your rPi device. I've seen people rely on Orange Pi only to find that it's out of stock and they need to port their code to rPi now.
- tigrezno 2y agogood documentation Ecosystem of HATS GPIO camera connector (better than most usb cameras)
- ChrisRR 2y agoBecause people like to tinker