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The world of Dante's Divine Comedy
- vismit2000 2y agoFor the math geeks out there: Dante's Paradise, canto XXXIII, lines 133–135, contain the verse: As the geometer his mind applies To square the circle, nor for all his wit Finds the right formula, howe'er he tries Qual è ’l geométra che tutto s’affige per misurar lo cerchio, e non ritrova, pensando, quel principio ond’elli indige,
- liontwist 2y ago> Dante is clearly writing in the expectation that his intended audience of learned men will know these references and understand their relevance, We just replaced the Bible and Homeric texts with Star Wars and marvel. Everybody at the time would know the biblical allusions even if they were illiterate. > many conditions that nowadays are routinely cured or prevented would have been inevitably fatal; not all of the souls in the Comedy who died in their thirties and forties Are they confusing average lifespan for typical lifespan? Isn’t this contradicted by the later paragraph in the same article?
- yCombLinks 2y agoI don't see that error being made. What makes you think that? Tons of people died in their 30s and 40s from curable illnesses before modern medicine. Life expectancy of people that reached adulthood was still under 50 during that time period.
- zusammen 2y ago[dead]
- garethrees 2y agoI am not sure that "Dante is clearly writing in the expectation that his audience will know these references" as claimed in the article. He put a lot of learning into the work, and maybe he had in mind an ideal reader who could follow the most obscure of references, and appreciate all the allegorical meanings, but it's noticeable that the narrator of the poem is always asking naïve questions and getting rebuked for his ignorance by Virgil and Beatrice. Readers who don't understand everything in the poem can thus feel that they are in a similar position to the narrator. And as soon as the poem was published, people started writing explanations for the difficult bits. Dante's son Jacopo wrote a commentary in 1322, Graziolo Bambaglioli wrote another in 1324, and by the end of the 14th century there were at least fifteen. This shows that the poem quickly found an audience that was not familiar with all the references.
- liontwist 2y agoGood info. But is the difficulty detecting the references? Or interpreting the meaning and metaphor?
- mistercheph 2y agoIn serious reading of anything, there is no difference
- liontwist 2y agoWe are discussing a book where the author intentionally fills the world with historical figures. This is not the structure of every work.
- mistercheph 2y agoHistorical figures aren't the only exogenous things in written works, and historical figures are far from the extent of the external structures and themes that are present in Dante's Comedy, I would go as far as to say that the historical connections in the comedy are not that significant, and serve mostly to distract one particular class of reader.
- liontwist 2y agoOk, but you aren’t participating in the discussion being had here.
- mistercheph 2y agoI responded directly to your comment where you suggested that the work of identifying and/or interpreting "references" was unique to or characteristic of Dante. And I am adding that while always interesting and rewarding for those that are obsessed with a work, "getting" the references in Dante's Comedy or any other work of merit is not the point, and they are not all that important in the work. And further, since I am near the subject, I am engraving my personal ad hominem, that it is the characteristic mark of a certain class of readership (which I hold in low regard) to fixate on which 7th century monk in which manuscript first introduced some mentioned doctrine before having (and never-to-have) attempted to commune with the work itself.
- throw_pm23 2y agoI will sound awfully smug, but I tend to understand most of the biblical and homeric references, only some of the star wars ones (those referring to the original trilogy) and absolutely none of those about marvel films of which I haven't seen any. It means I can go enjoy some Dante :)
- Almondsetat 2y agoAn often overlooked fact of the Comedy, is that it actually makes some novel theological arguments and sometimes puts itself in contrast withe Church. This goes agains the common knowledge that in the "Dark Ages" the Church was tyrannical and oppressive. In fact, the Church of the Middle Ages had an extraordinary tolerance and interest towards discussions, criticism, and contradictions. Counter-intuitively, the later Church of a more "enlightened" age began turning into the intolerant regime we all know about
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago>Counter-intuitively, or intuitively, it is when you start to lose influence and power that you become more crazy and aggressive about maintaining what you have, like the truism that really tough guys don't act all macho, a truly dominant church does not mind the small theological disputations.
- riquito 2y ago... Dante was exiled from the Pope and, if captured, the order was to burn him at the stake Alighieri Dante è condannato per baratteria, frode, falsità, dolo, malizia, inique pratiche estortive, proventi illeciti, pederastia, e lo si condanna a 5000 fiorini di multa, interdizione perpetua dai pubblici uffici, esilio perpetuo (in contumacia), e se lo si prende, al rogo, così che muoia (Libro del chiodo - Archivio di Stato di Firenze - 10 marzo 1302)
- Almondsetat 2y agoThis was a political exile because his side lost and he was politically active. Very common everywhere and doesn't refute my post
- rpastuszak 2y agoIf you're interested in Divine Comedy here's one I cannot recommend enough: Walking with Dante by Mark Scarbrough: https://walkingwithdante.captivate.fm https://walkingwithdante.captivate.fm It's slow and immensely comprehensive, but also very accessible and so much fun! His love for the subject and enthusiasm are contagious. Sharing this because thanks to HN I learned about some of my other favourite podcasts: Science & Futurism with Isaac Arthur and The History of Rome by Marc Duncan. I finished THoR twice and I listen to Isaac's podcast every week. I keep coming back to Dante.
- 082349872349872 2y agoDante did make the 1st circle sound like a far more interesting destination than any unending praise-singing up above.
- gmoot 2y agoIf you are comparing Inferno to Paradiso, then this is a poor summary of it.
- greenie_beans 2y agoto those of us who are still stuck in purgatorio, the circle with all the virtuous doesn't sound like a bad spot.
- ziotom78 2y agoWell… If you are in Purgatory, you will eventually enter Paradiso (=Heaven), and for t→+∞ the ratio between the time spent in Paradiso and Purgatorio will diverge in favor of the former!
- benatkin 2y agoIndeed, and without saying it outright. Show, don't tell.
- optimalsolver 2y agoWell that's what happens when you exclude every interesting historical person from Paradise. Eternity in heaven with a bunch of joyless saints and martyrs just sounds like an additional circle of hell. Reminds me of this post: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/qZJBighPrnv9bSqTZ/31-laws-of-fun https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/qZJBighPrnv9bSqTZ/31-laws-of... >Beware of packing your Utopia with things you think people should do that aren't actually fun. Again, consider Christian Heaven: singing hymns doesn't sound like loads of endless fun, but you're supposed to enjoy praying, so no one can point this out.
- graemep 2y ago
- GJim 2y agoLasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate Dante's words on the gates to hell; almost always translated as "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here". However, Clive James (yes, that Clive James), translated it much better as: "Forget your hopes. They are what brought you here." An utterly unforgettable bloke to all those who met him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_James https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_James
- qsort 2y agoIt's an interesting translation but it's adding a layer that most certainly wasn't there. The original almost literally translates to the most common English translation: Lasciate = leave behind ogne = every speranza = hope voi = you ch' = who intrate = enter
- rz2k 2y agoCh’ could be chi or che, who or what. It is at least an interesting insight if Dante intended the ambiguity.
- stared 2y agoIt would be an interesting reference to Pandora's Box: is hope a counterbalance to all troubles and misfortunes, or the greatest of them all?
- jongjong 2y ago
- acheron 2y agoLe cose ti fier conte quando noi fermerem li nostri passi su la trista riviera d'Acheronte.
- RyJones 2y agoI traded wicker.com for a 1544 edition of La Comedia.
- habosa 2y agoOk I need to hear the full version of this story.
- RyJones 2y agoI loved the Dead Milkmen. I bought the wicker.com domain for reasons. The guy who does the thing wanted this to be the way his wife wanted it to be
- joloooo 2y agoThis introduced more questions than answers when Dead Milkmen entered the scene.
- RyJones 2y agoFrom The Big Sleazy: - But I'll tell ya what, how 'bout if I send you a $20,000 gift certificate from Bob and Jerry's World of Wicker? - Hey that's wicker! Dude, thanks a lot! My friends and I would say we were shopping for wicker whenever we were going out in high school. So I bought wicker.com. The guy who owns it now cleans out estates, and cold-emailed me. I said I didn't want money, I want something interesting. The 1544 printing was the offer, which I accepted. His wife is a wicker importer.
- samcgraw 2y agoHave been going through The Divine Comedy this year as a part of https://100daysofdante.com https://100daysofdante.com, cannot recommend enough!
- svieira 2y agoma non eran da ciò le proprie penne: se non che la mia mente fu percossa da un fulgore in che sua voglia venne. A l'alta fantasia qui mancò possa ma già volgeva il mio disio e 'l velle sì come rota ch'igualmente è mossa, l'amor che move il sole e l'altre stelle. ---- And my own wings were far too weak for that. But then my mind was struck by light that flashed and, with this light, received what it had asked. Here force failed my high fantasy but my desire and will were moved already — like a wheel revolving uniformly — by the Love that moves the sun and the other stars.
- toyg 2y agoFor anyone who understands Italian, I would recommend Alessandro Barbero's lecture on Dante - which covers his personality and life as well as the historical context. The Comedy can feel like a ponderous, unwieldy work, particularly as it progresses out of the "fun" of Inferno; keeping in mind the man who wrote it can help understanding and, in a way, cutting down some of the pretentiousness.
- Amekedl 2y agoLimbus Company