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This has nothing to do with bailing a company out. Intel, along with every other chip company, do not want to build any chip plants in the US. It makes no busin

This has nothing to do with bailing a company out. Intel, along with every other chip company, do not want to build any chip plants in the US. It makes no business sense for them. But this is bad for the US given that chip making is a critical defense industry. That's why the CHIPS Act exists, to onshore a critical defense industry so that if war breaks out, at least it's secure.

edflsafoiewq 2y ago
Why is chip making a critical defense industry?
- ikiris 2y ago
  Because literally everything modern needs chips.
- tivert 2y ago
  > Why is chip making a critical defense industry? Go fight a war with 1960s technology against a modern adversary and find out. I'd suggest you do some of your own research to get up to speed, because your question is akin to "why to people need to eat food?"
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    >Go fight a war with 1960s technology against a modern adversary and find out. Not a great argument considering Afghanistan, Iraq, and Yemen (read: Houthis), and further back Vietnam and North Korea all wrecked the US military one way or nine anothers. The US military has historically fucking sucked at fighting underteched enemies. If we are concerned about national security, I would look into why we can't win wars against bass ackwards goat herders and jungle men instead of silicon that won't even see military applications for at least a few more decades.
    - kcb 2y ago
      Now go look at the casualty ratios in all those wars.
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        Look: If the American casualty count is bigger than zero then we fucking failed, let alone if we outright lose the war too. Why? Because we are supposedly so fucking advanced that we are worried about silicon toys that we don't even use to kill people with. In case you missed the memo: The US Navy admits the Houthis are giving them the hardest time since World War II and they don't even fucking have warships. We spent over two decades in Afghanistan and Iraq to end up losing them. China only has to send weather balloons to draw F-22s out. The pullout from Vietnam is still one of the biggest embarrassments in American history. The moral of picking a fight using 1960s technology is: You will win. End of. Turns out the best way to kill someone is to just fire shit their way and kill them, who knew.
        kcb 2y ago
        So you think the way the US would win those wars is by suffering more casualties? No, in all cases, it was the lack of political will to continue not an inability to defeat enemies tactically.
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        I think the way the US would win wars is by figuring out how to win wars (and ideally not start/join so many fucking wars in the first place) instead of manufacturing national crises out of nothingburgers that nonetheless catch the attention of dinner tables across the country. Putting it another way: We're losing wars whether we make our silicon toys here or in Taiwan or if Taiwan gets China'd. I want my tax dollars put to better use than Intel.
        tivert 2y ago
        > Putting it another way: We're losing wars whether we make our silicon toys here or in Taiwan or if Taiwan gets China'd. I want my tax dollars put to better use than Intel. I think you should move to China, instead of moving all of us there. If you hand China all the technological cards, because muh tax dollars, that's just what you'll do. The international order will reconfigure around China and its desires, and the US will become increasingly irrelevant as it looses capability and walks down the value chain towards a resource extraction and agriculture economy. And don't think the market will create a new domestic entry into one of these capital-heavy industries, once the domestic competitor is gone: it'll always be cheaper to buy from China, so the market will buy from China. It'll take a lot more taxpayer money to build a new Intel foundry business than to save the existing one.
- lancesells 2y ago
  Chips are the new oil. They run everything and without them you would be outdroned in the case of a war.
  - edflsafoiewq 2y ago
    Do drones need cutting edge chips? Why are old nodes not enough?
    - lancesells 2y ago
      I have no idea but look at it from the perspective of the US Department of Defense. Also, companies like Google make ~$8B in profit every three months for selling ads. Is it really that crazy they awarded this amount of money to try and have US-made chips? I'm not advocating for war, weapons, defense budgets, etc., but this doesn't seem like a bad thing if it's providing jobs and chip alternatives for the US and the world. It seems like Taiwan is going to cease being independent at some point.

edflsafoiewq 2y ago

Why is chip making a critical defense industry?

ikiris 2y ago
Because literally everything modern needs chips.
tivert 2y ago
> Why is chip making a critical defense industry? Go fight a war with 1960s technology against a modern adversary and find out. I'd suggest you do some of your own research to get up to speed, because your question is akin to "why to people need to eat food?"
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >Go fight a war with 1960s technology against a modern adversary and find out. Not a great argument considering Afghanistan, Iraq, and Yemen (read: Houthis), and further back Vietnam and North Korea all wrecked the US military one way or nine anothers. The US military has historically fucking sucked at fighting underteched enemies. If we are concerned about national security, I would look into why we can't win wars against bass ackwards goat herders and jungle men instead of silicon that won't even see military applications for at least a few more decades.
  - kcb 2y ago
    Now go look at the casualty ratios in all those wars.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      Look: If the American casualty count is bigger than zero then we fucking failed, let alone if we outright lose the war too. Why? Because we are supposedly so fucking advanced that we are worried about silicon toys that we don't even use to kill people with. In case you missed the memo: The US Navy admits the Houthis are giving them the hardest time since World War II and they don't even fucking have warships. We spent over two decades in Afghanistan and Iraq to end up losing them. China only has to send weather balloons to draw F-22s out. The pullout from Vietnam is still one of the biggest embarrassments in American history. The moral of picking a fight using 1960s technology is: You will win. End of. Turns out the best way to kill someone is to just fire shit their way and kill them, who knew.
      - kcb 2y ago
        So you think the way the US would win those wars is by suffering more casualties? No, in all cases, it was the lack of political will to continue not an inability to defeat enemies tactically.
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        I think the way the US would win wars is by figuring out how to win wars (and ideally not start/join so many fucking wars in the first place) instead of manufacturing national crises out of nothingburgers that nonetheless catch the attention of dinner tables across the country. Putting it another way: We're losing wars whether we make our silicon toys here or in Taiwan or if Taiwan gets China'd. I want my tax dollars put to better use than Intel.
        tivert 2y ago
        > Putting it another way: We're losing wars whether we make our silicon toys here or in Taiwan or if Taiwan gets China'd. I want my tax dollars put to better use than Intel. I think you should move to China, instead of moving all of us there. If you hand China all the technological cards, because muh tax dollars, that's just what you'll do. The international order will reconfigure around China and its desires, and the US will become increasingly irrelevant as it looses capability and walks down the value chain towards a resource extraction and agriculture economy. And don't think the market will create a new domestic entry into one of these capital-heavy industries, once the domestic competitor is gone: it'll always be cheaper to buy from China, so the market will buy from China. It'll take a lot more taxpayer money to build a new Intel foundry business than to save the existing one.
lancesells 2y ago
Chips are the new oil. They run everything and without them you would be outdroned in the case of a war.
- edflsafoiewq 2y ago
  Do drones need cutting edge chips? Why are old nodes not enough?
  - lancesells 2y ago
    I have no idea but look at it from the perspective of the US Department of Defense. Also, companies like Google make ~$8B in profit every three months for selling ads. Is it really that crazy they awarded this amount of money to try and have US-made chips? I'm not advocating for war, weapons, defense budgets, etc., but this doesn't seem like a bad thing if it's providing jobs and chip alternatives for the US and the world. It seems like Taiwan is going to cease being independent at some point.