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I think it gets worse > To prevent artifacts produced by head and eye movements caused by shifting gaze between the screen and the keyboard, typed words did not

I think it gets worse > To prevent artifacts produced by head and eye movements caused by shifting gaze between the screen and the keyboard, typed words did not appear on the screen while the participant was typewriting. So no only were typists not touch typing, they couldn't see what they were typing. Too many variables are changed between the two tests. A) writers can see whole words vs no visual feedback B) writers use their natural writing technique (2 or 3 fingers?) vs 1. It'd be interesting to test typing with a single hand (using words that can be entirely touch typed with one hand) I'm surprised the choose not to gather that data. https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2306&context=honors_etd https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2306&... Is interesting in that it shows the opposite effect: improved recall. It also measured velocity/speed of response. Which shows writing was faster. Another idea for a test: writing without ink.

ryanjshaw 2y ago
Not disagreeing with your points here in this context, but it's interesting to note that I learned touch typing on a typewriter in school and I know which letters I've missed when typing, and can happily copy pages of text without needing to see the screen - even to correct any errors.
- Forge36 2y ago
  I wonder if that's lost with this paper's method of typing. I learned on a Mac. The course material was copying from a book without looking at the screen, then correcting the errors. This second pass to correct mistakes is different, and it's not clear that you can be removed when taking notes without affecting learning.
  - neom 2y ago
    I generally don't look at a screen when I'm typing, I know how to touch type perfectly, I learned to type using mavis beacon in the 90s and you'd get a very low grade in computers if you couldn't touch type.
    - setopt 2y ago
      If you don’t look at either the screen or keyboard, how do you adjust for variations between keyboards? I regularly switch between a laptop keyboard, standard external keyboard, and ergonomic (curved/split) external keyboard, including switching between ANSI/ISO keyboard layouts (my country defaults to ISO but my MacBook has ANSI). After each switch I generally need a bit of time to adjust, and type quite a bit of errors for the first half-hour or so. Especially when I have to type special symbols like backslash and percent, which move quite a bit between keyboards.
      - neom 2y ago
        Oh for sure, if I'm using a keyboard I don't know, then yeah, disregard everything, I probably look at the screen and the keyboard and make a lot of mistakes. I find the mac keyboards all feel pretty much exactly the same, I use a keychron at work, but yeah, to your point, if I walked into a random best buy, I'd probably be awful on the keyboard unless it was a mac or a keychron. Out of curiosity, why so many keyboards? I work with a dude (lawyer) who takes his keyboard everywhere with him, ha.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
> So no only were typists not touch typing, they couldn't see what they were typing. This is how I feel as a left hander while writing the old fashioned way. I can’t see what I’m writing so I get sloppy really quickly, and always need paper with lines. Not that this makes their methodology not totally bunk, of course.
- Loughla 2y ago
  Do you have any advice for helping a child who is left handed and sucks at penmanship? My youngest is left handed, and his writing is just trash. I have no idea how to help him outside of specific left handed writing tools (that I'm pretty sure don't help at all).
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Learn to type? I never got over my penman ship problem, I just learnt to type and printed all my exams in college. And then it didn’t matter much after school since I would mostly type anyways. If I had to do it over again, I would probably force myself to write right handed. It should be possible to get used to it, but that would really be a choice they have to make for themselves.
    - Moru 2y ago
      My english teacher was forced to switch from left to right when he was young and his writing was the worst in school. This was before the computer revolution so he did write all the time.
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        I know it isn’t ideal, but I just like the idea of seeing t what I’m doing. Like the extra vision you get with contacts as opposed to glasses.
        Moru 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
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ryanjshaw 2y ago

Not disagreeing with your points here in this context, but it's interesting to note that I learned touch typing on a typewriter in school and I know which letters I've missed when typing, and can happily copy pages of text without needing to see the screen - even to correct any errors.

Forge36 2y ago
I wonder if that's lost with this paper's method of typing. I learned on a Mac. The course material was copying from a book without looking at the screen, then correcting the errors. This second pass to correct mistakes is different, and it's not clear that you can be removed when taking notes without affecting learning.
- neom 2y ago
  I generally don't look at a screen when I'm typing, I know how to touch type perfectly, I learned to type using mavis beacon in the 90s and you'd get a very low grade in computers if you couldn't touch type.
  - setopt 2y ago
    If you don’t look at either the screen or keyboard, how do you adjust for variations between keyboards? I regularly switch between a laptop keyboard, standard external keyboard, and ergonomic (curved/split) external keyboard, including switching between ANSI/ISO keyboard layouts (my country defaults to ISO but my MacBook has ANSI). After each switch I generally need a bit of time to adjust, and type quite a bit of errors for the first half-hour or so. Especially when I have to type special symbols like backslash and percent, which move quite a bit between keyboards.
    - neom 2y ago
      Oh for sure, if I'm using a keyboard I don't know, then yeah, disregard everything, I probably look at the screen and the keyboard and make a lot of mistakes. I find the mac keyboards all feel pretty much exactly the same, I use a keychron at work, but yeah, to your point, if I walked into a random best buy, I'd probably be awful on the keyboard unless it was a mac or a keychron. Out of curiosity, why so many keyboards? I work with a dude (lawyer) who takes his keyboard everywhere with him, ha.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

> So no only were typists not touch typing, they couldn't see what they were typing. This is how I feel as a left hander while writing the old fashioned way. I can’t see what I’m writing so I get sloppy really quickly, and always need paper with lines. Not that this makes their methodology not totally bunk, of course.

Loughla 2y ago
Do you have any advice for helping a child who is left handed and sucks at penmanship? My youngest is left handed, and his writing is just trash. I have no idea how to help him outside of specific left handed writing tools (that I'm pretty sure don't help at all).
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Learn to type? I never got over my penman ship problem, I just learnt to type and printed all my exams in college. And then it didn’t matter much after school since I would mostly type anyways. If I had to do it over again, I would probably force myself to write right handed. It should be possible to get used to it, but that would really be a choice they have to make for themselves.
  - Moru 2y ago
    My english teacher was forced to switch from left to right when he was young and his writing was the worst in school. This was before the computer revolution so he did write all the time.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      I know it isn’t ideal, but I just like the idea of seeing t what I’m doing. Like the extra vision you get with contacts as opposed to glasses.
      - Moru 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

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