6 ms·

"Allowing the use of (the fingers of) both hands would cause many unforeseen effects on the brain, which would make it hard to interpret the results" so all par

"Allowing the use of (the fingers of) both hands would cause many unforeseen effects on the brain, which would make it hard to interpret the results" so all participants had to "type using the right index finger [only]". How does one rule out the relevance of those "unforeseen effects" when claiming to compare typing in general vs handwriting in general? The paper only contains that one line about the matter, in the "Participants" section. (also, do Norwegian university students in their early twenties normally write in cursive?)

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> when claiming to compare typing in general vs handwriting in general Yeah, the paper claims "whenever handwriting movements are included as a learning strategy, more of the brain gets stimulated, resulting in the formation of more complex neural network connectivity," which is bunk given the methodology.
LocalH 2y ago
Wow. Junk science indeed. "Unforeseen effects on the brain" so you essentially test in a way that is incomparable to those who are experienced typists? If you're only using one finger to type, of course you're using less brain activity to control that one finger, versus all ten. I'm unable to read the actual paper, but from the comments here, it sure seems like they worked backwards from an existing premise ("handwriting is better than typing for retaining information") and found a way to make that "truth". Edit: Missed the link to the article in the comments. Reading it now.
- Forge36 2y ago
  They give a recommendation for education, but didn't measure retention. I agree with their premise provided students don't know how to touch type (given the anecdotal amount of visual typing I've seen a reason concern for students) it's also interesting that it's cursive, which is being taught less.
Forge36 2y ago
I think it gets worse > To prevent artifacts produced by head and eye movements caused by shifting gaze between the screen and the keyboard, typed words did not appear on the screen while the participant was typewriting. So no only were typists not touch typing, they couldn't see what they were typing. Too many variables are changed between the two tests. A) writers can see whole words vs no visual feedback B) writers use their natural writing technique (2 or 3 fingers?) vs 1. It'd be interesting to test typing with a single hand (using words that can be entirely touch typed with one hand) I'm surprised the choose not to gather that data. https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2306&context=honors_etd https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2306&... Is interesting in that it shows the opposite effect: improved recall. It also measured velocity/speed of response. Which shows writing was faster. Another idea for a test: writing without ink.
- ryanjshaw 2y ago
  Not disagreeing with your points here in this context, but it's interesting to note that I learned touch typing on a typewriter in school and I know which letters I've missed when typing, and can happily copy pages of text without needing to see the screen - even to correct any errors.
  - Forge36 2y ago
    I wonder if that's lost with this paper's method of typing. I learned on a Mac. The course material was copying from a book without looking at the screen, then correcting the errors. This second pass to correct mistakes is different, and it's not clear that you can be removed when taking notes without affecting learning.
    - neom 2y ago
      I generally don't look at a screen when I'm typing, I know how to touch type perfectly, I learned to type using mavis beacon in the 90s and you'd get a very low grade in computers if you couldn't touch type.
BlueTemplar 2y ago
There might be no 'normally' remaining any more : I've heard that in some «almost only words» fields, laptops for students (and projectors for professors) got generalized during lectures (?), while in math-heavy fields (and I assume, anything involving frequently having to do drawings / schematics), paper for students (and blackboards for professors) were still overwhelmingly used only a few years ago, and I predict are still going to be, until both hardware (e-paper just only barely got colour now !) and software gets much, MUCH better.
- Panzer04 2y ago
  I think things like iPads aren't uncommon, at least that's what I was using - but handwriting on an iPad is virtually identical to pen and paper, so no real difference.
  - BlueTemplar 2y ago
    We'll have to disagree on that, since IMHO even e-paper falls short of paper (while having other benefits of course)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
awinter-py 2y ago
> Allowing the use of (the fingers of) both hands would cause many unforeseen effects on the brain, which would make it hard to interpret the results. Participants gave their informed written consent but is it truly informed consent if it is written with multiple fingers?
- Moru 2y ago
  I love this with Science. If something would be hard to work with, we just change it until it is easier to measure. That it has no resemblanse with what we were trying to measure is uninteresting.
setopt 2y ago
> How does one rule out the relevance of those "unforeseen effects" when claiming to compare typing in general vs handwriting in general? Exactly… Most people can after training type much faster than they can write with a pen, assuming they’re allowed to use all fingers, which I’d expect to be crucial when comparing them. > do Norwegian university students in their early twenties normally write in cursive? Norwegian here: No. We learned cursive in elementary school but most students switched to “block letters” in secondary school. For the past 15+ years, students have also had school computers since secondary school, so about half of their writing went digital since then. (With somewhat negative results, given the attention span of most teens…)

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> when claiming to compare typing in general vs handwriting in general Yeah, the paper claims "whenever handwriting movements are included as a learning strategy, more of the brain gets stimulated, resulting in the formation of more complex neural network connectivity," which is bunk given the methodology.

LocalH 2y ago

Wow. Junk science indeed. "Unforeseen effects on the brain" so you essentially test in a way that is incomparable to those who are experienced typists? If you're only using one finger to type, of course you're using less brain activity to control that one finger, versus all ten. I'm unable to read the actual paper, but from the comments here, it sure seems like they worked backwards from an existing premise ("handwriting is better than typing for retaining information") and found a way to make that "truth". Edit: Missed the link to the article in the comments. Reading it now.

Forge36 2y ago
They give a recommendation for education, but didn't measure retention. I agree with their premise provided students don't know how to touch type (given the anecdotal amount of visual typing I've seen a reason concern for students) it's also interesting that it's cursive, which is being taught less.

Forge36 2y ago

I think it gets worse > To prevent artifacts produced by head and eye movements caused by shifting gaze between the screen and the keyboard, typed words did not appear on the screen while the participant was typewriting. So no only were typists not touch typing, they couldn't see what they were typing. Too many variables are changed between the two tests. A) writers can see whole words vs no visual feedback B) writers use their natural writing technique (2 or 3 fingers?) vs 1. It'd be interesting to test typing with a single hand (using words that can be entirely touch typed with one hand) I'm surprised the choose not to gather that data. https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2306&context=honors_etd https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2306&... Is interesting in that it shows the opposite effect: improved recall. It also measured velocity/speed of response. Which shows writing was faster. Another idea for a test: writing without ink.

ryanjshaw 2y ago
Not disagreeing with your points here in this context, but it's interesting to note that I learned touch typing on a typewriter in school and I know which letters I've missed when typing, and can happily copy pages of text without needing to see the screen - even to correct any errors.
- Forge36 2y ago
  I wonder if that's lost with this paper's method of typing. I learned on a Mac. The course material was copying from a book without looking at the screen, then correcting the errors. This second pass to correct mistakes is different, and it's not clear that you can be removed when taking notes without affecting learning.
  - neom 2y ago
    I generally don't look at a screen when I'm typing, I know how to touch type perfectly, I learned to type using mavis beacon in the 90s and you'd get a very low grade in computers if you couldn't touch type.

BlueTemplar 2y ago

There might be no 'normally' remaining any more : I've heard that in some «almost only words» fields, laptops for students (and projectors for professors) got generalized during lectures (?), while in math-heavy fields (and I assume, anything involving frequently having to do drawings / schematics), paper for students (and blackboards for professors) were still overwhelmingly used only a few years ago, and I predict are still going to be, until both hardware (e-paper just only barely got colour now !) and software gets much, MUCH better.

Panzer04 2y ago
I think things like iPads aren't uncommon, at least that's what I was using - but handwriting on an iPad is virtually identical to pen and paper, so no real difference.
- BlueTemplar 2y ago
  We'll have to disagree on that, since IMHO even e-paper falls short of paper (while having other benefits of course)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

awinter-py 2y ago

> Allowing the use of (the fingers of) both hands would cause many unforeseen effects on the brain, which would make it hard to interpret the results. Participants gave their informed written consent but is it truly informed consent if it is written with multiple fingers?

Moru 2y ago
I love this with Science. If something would be hard to work with, we just change it until it is easier to measure. That it has no resemblanse with what we were trying to measure is uninteresting.

setopt 2y ago

> How does one rule out the relevance of those "unforeseen effects" when claiming to compare typing in general vs handwriting in general? Exactly… Most people can after training type much faster than they can write with a pen, assuming they’re allowed to use all fingers, which I’d expect to be crucial when comparing them. > do Norwegian university students in their early twenties normally write in cursive? Norwegian here: No. We learned cursive in elementary school but most students switched to “block letters” in secondary school. For the past 15+ years, students have also had school computers since secondary school, so about half of their writing went digital since then. (With somewhat negative results, given the attention span of most teens…)