6 ms·

> They recently (<2 years ago) arrested basically every criminal in the country I hope we can take their word for it, and they weren't abusing this power, beca

> They recently (<2 years ago) arrested basically every criminal in the country I hope we can take their word for it, and they weren't abusing this power, because Amnesty International says they just threw huge numbers in prison without any due process[1]: > The majority of the detentions carried out under the state of emergency were arbitrary because they violated due process guarantees through absence of clear judicial orders, prolongation of administrative detentions, lack of precise information from authorities to detainees’ families regarding their whereabouts, and concealment of the identity of the judges processing detainees. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think it's necessarily awesome when the government just 'disappears' people and I hope that doesn't happen here. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america-and-the-caribbean/el-salvador/report-el-salvador/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america...

ericfrenkiel 2y ago
You’re old fashioned.
ceejayoz 2y ago
Of note: the US accuses Bukele of essentially bribing the gangs not to make too much fuss. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us-gang-leaders-truce https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us...
- whymauri 2y ago
  When Juan Manuel Santos negotiated a peace treaty with the FARC, he won a Nobel. When Bukele makes El Salvador the safest country in the Americas, there are 'explosive accusations' of bribery. Is it not functionally similar? Santos was defense minister during the Colombian False Positives scandals which was arguably much more evil than anything Bukele has done [0]. Can't make heads or tails of this, honestly. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal The extrajudicial murder of innocent young men, conducted in order to boost body count OKRs for promotions and yearly bonuses. EDIT: the purpose of this comment is not to be pro-Bukele, but to encourage critical examination of the _framing and wording_ English-language publications use when discussing Latin American politics. As a Venezuelan, I am especially wary of authoritarians and you do not have to convince me about the slippery slope of judicial abuses of power.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Is it not functionally similar No. Negotiating a peace treaty in which the gangs disarm in exchange for political participation versus paying them to be quiet for the moment are fundamentally different. It’s analogous to the U.S. strategies in Germany and Japan, on one hand, and in Afghanistan, on the other hand.
- m3kw9 2y ago
  It looks like the first step to calm down things before he can arrest them all
throwme_123 2y ago
It's not "old fashioned", I think you are being fed propaganda by these NGOs. Sadly, same goes for a huge part of the mainstream media that becomes an echo chamber for them (Guardian, NYT for example that used to be reference of truth but lost that status). Don't take my word for it, please take the time to read opposite views and try to honestly make your own opinion.
- whaaaaat 2y ago
  Do you have any credible sources? "Do your own research" is a pretty thin rebuttal to "here's a source by a well regarded NGO". And if you are saying Amnesty International is feeding propaganda through the mainstream media, that's also going to need some credible sources. They are generally considered a fairly highly factual organization.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  I didn't say it was old fashioned, I said I was old fashioned because I can't cheer for the government effectively 'disappearing' large numbers of people. In the US we've enthusiastically taken up arms against governments which did this type of thing. We have parades to honor people who died fighting against it. Amnesty International isn't editorializing and this isn't a remotely controversial claim: the roundups happened via emergency powers which, by design, denied due process. It's not a secret, El Salvador wasn't trying to hide this.
  - bluSCALE4 2y ago
    The secret isn't that El Salvador is breaking human rights law, the secret is that El Salvador is an amazing place to visit and it won't break the bank. I can say first hand that Mexico and Ecuador have become sketchy; you can't feel completely safe anywhere IMO in those countries.
    - warkdarrior 2y ago
      [flagged]
csomar 2y ago
It is a balancing act: If you follow procedure, you'll be too slow to make an impact. If you don't follow procedure, you'll throw innocent Pablo in jail, but your actions will make impact. Politicians are specifically elected for this. Otherwise, you just put bureaucrats; because what difference would it make?
whynotmaybe 2y ago
So deeply ethically puzzled about the situation in Salvador that I'm linking it to the trolley problem. Salvador could stay being one of the countries with the highest murder and rape, and kinda respecting human rights by following the presumption of innocence VS could put 2% of the population in jail to raise the quality of life for the remaining 98%? I even heard someone say that Bukele proposed that any country that want Salvador to respect human rights for those arrested could just take the prisoners as refugees. (No source on that). Which bring me back to the trolley problem, would you want your own country to take those ~75.000 people as refugee and consider them all as innocent?
- asdasdsddd 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tayo42 2y ago
    I think the issue in el salvador is more about the handful of innocent people that got caught in the mix
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > rights of innocent citizens come first and all other rights should be sought for after In general, systems with this attitude (that rights are conditional on the goodness of the subject) wind up with a criminal at the top putting people they disagree with in jail. That said, those effects manifest in the long run. In the short run, choosing autocratic simplicity is rational. It’s just that it explains why some systems yo-yo between corrupt autocracy and weak populism with islands of stability in between—getting liberal democracy to work takes patience and skill.
    - asdasdsddd 2y ago
      Why can't liberal democracies prosecute crime efficiently? Is singapore not a liberal democracy?
      - deleted 2y ago
0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
I believe Bukele has claimed that the state is working to get trials for everyone, it's just taking a long time. I totally believe that El Salvador lacks the necessary state capacity to try so many people rapidly. My idea: To release innocent people faster, let friends/family members/etc. post a bond. Prisoners are tried in order from highest to lowest bond value. The bond is returned to the family if the prisoner is found innocent. If they're found guilty, the bond goes to the Salvadorean healthcare system or something like that.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> don't think it's necessarily awesome when the government just 'disappears' people and I hope that doesn't happen here Disappearing means no paper trail. These are mass arrests. Also problematic. But closer to a martial strategy than a civil one. But when you’re the murder capital of the world, maybe that’s merited.
m3kw9 2y ago
Not saying they should have due process but there flip side is they will take 20 years to get through the queue while more pop up. Not sure how they have have it both ways.
jahewson 2y ago
It’s clearly not an ideal situation. It might well be the start of something very dark. But also it’s worth examining how unserious some of Amnesty’s quoted claims are: > lack of precise information from authorities to detainees’ families regarding their whereabouts, Because the gangs will bust them out > and concealment of the identity of the judges processing detainees. Because the gangs will kill the judges
dataflow 2y ago
> Amnesty International says they just threw huge numbers in prison without any due process Due process just means... process that is due. But (for better or for worse, depending on how you view this) it could totally be the case that nothing was due in the particular situation, at least legally. Since people look at this from a USA angle, here's the US constitution: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." Notice that in the scenario described, a right such as habeas corpus simply isn't due. You can't be violating due process if there was no process due. Notice this isn't pedantry; national security has always been something states have at least partially prioritized over individual rights. I make no judgment of the morals of the situation, but I thought it was worth pointing out that rights aren't as absolute (legally, anyway) as people think they are.

ericfrenkiel 2y ago

You’re old fashioned.

ceejayoz 2y ago

Of note: the US accuses Bukele of essentially bribing the gangs not to make too much fuss. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us-gang-leaders-truce https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/el-salvador-us...

whymauri 2y ago
When Juan Manuel Santos negotiated a peace treaty with the FARC, he won a Nobel. When Bukele makes El Salvador the safest country in the Americas, there are 'explosive accusations' of bribery. Is it not functionally similar? Santos was defense minister during the Colombian False Positives scandals which was arguably much more evil than anything Bukele has done [0]. Can't make heads or tails of this, honestly. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal The extrajudicial murder of innocent young men, conducted in order to boost body count OKRs for promotions and yearly bonuses. EDIT: the purpose of this comment is not to be pro-Bukele, but to encourage critical examination of the _framing and wording_ English-language publications use when discussing Latin American politics. As a Venezuelan, I am especially wary of authoritarians and you do not have to convince me about the slippery slope of judicial abuses of power.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Is it not functionally similar No. Negotiating a peace treaty in which the gangs disarm in exchange for political participation versus paying them to be quiet for the moment are fundamentally different. It’s analogous to the U.S. strategies in Germany and Japan, on one hand, and in Afghanistan, on the other hand.
m3kw9 2y ago
It looks like the first step to calm down things before he can arrest them all

throwme_123 2y ago

It's not "old fashioned", I think you are being fed propaganda by these NGOs. Sadly, same goes for a huge part of the mainstream media that becomes an echo chamber for them (Guardian, NYT for example that used to be reference of truth but lost that status). Don't take my word for it, please take the time to read opposite views and try to honestly make your own opinion.

whaaaaat 2y ago
Do you have any credible sources? "Do your own research" is a pretty thin rebuttal to "here's a source by a well regarded NGO". And if you are saying Amnesty International is feeding propaganda through the mainstream media, that's also going to need some credible sources. They are generally considered a fairly highly factual organization.
mullingitover 2y ago
I didn't say it was old fashioned, I said I was old fashioned because I can't cheer for the government effectively 'disappearing' large numbers of people. In the US we've enthusiastically taken up arms against governments which did this type of thing. We have parades to honor people who died fighting against it. Amnesty International isn't editorializing and this isn't a remotely controversial claim: the roundups happened via emergency powers which, by design, denied due process. It's not a secret, El Salvador wasn't trying to hide this.
- bluSCALE4 2y ago
  The secret isn't that El Salvador is breaking human rights law, the secret is that El Salvador is an amazing place to visit and it won't break the bank. I can say first hand that Mexico and Ecuador have become sketchy; you can't feel completely safe anywhere IMO in those countries.
  - warkdarrior 2y ago
    [flagged]

csomar 2y ago

It is a balancing act: If you follow procedure, you'll be too slow to make an impact. If you don't follow procedure, you'll throw innocent Pablo in jail, but your actions will make impact. Politicians are specifically elected for this. Otherwise, you just put bureaucrats; because what difference would it make?

whynotmaybe 2y ago

So deeply ethically puzzled about the situation in Salvador that I'm linking it to the trolley problem. Salvador could stay being one of the countries with the highest murder and rape, and kinda respecting human rights by following the presumption of innocence VS could put 2% of the population in jail to raise the quality of life for the remaining 98%? I even heard someone say that Bukele proposed that any country that want Salvador to respect human rights for those arrested could just take the prisoners as refugees. (No source on that). Which bring me back to the trolley problem, would you want your own country to take those ~75.000 people as refugee and consider them all as innocent?

asdasdsddd 2y ago
[flagged]
- tayo42 2y ago
  I think the issue in el salvador is more about the handful of innocent people that got caught in the mix
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > rights of innocent citizens come first and all other rights should be sought for after In general, systems with this attitude (that rights are conditional on the goodness of the subject) wind up with a criminal at the top putting people they disagree with in jail. That said, those effects manifest in the long run. In the short run, choosing autocratic simplicity is rational. It’s just that it explains why some systems yo-yo between corrupt autocracy and weak populism with islands of stability in between—getting liberal democracy to work takes patience and skill.
  - asdasdsddd 2y ago
    Why can't liberal democracies prosecute crime efficiently? Is singapore not a liberal democracy?
    - deleted 2y ago

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago

I believe Bukele has claimed that the state is working to get trials for everyone, it's just taking a long time. I totally believe that El Salvador lacks the necessary state capacity to try so many people rapidly. My idea: To release innocent people faster, let friends/family members/etc. post a bond. Prisoners are tried in order from highest to lowest bond value. The bond is returned to the family if the prisoner is found innocent. If they're found guilty, the bond goes to the Salvadorean healthcare system or something like that.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> don't think it's necessarily awesome when the government just 'disappears' people and I hope that doesn't happen here Disappearing means no paper trail. These are mass arrests. Also problematic. But closer to a martial strategy than a civil one. But when you’re the murder capital of the world, maybe that’s merited.

m3kw9 2y ago

Not saying they should have due process but there flip side is they will take 20 years to get through the queue while more pop up. Not sure how they have have it both ways.

jahewson 2y ago

It’s clearly not an ideal situation. It might well be the start of something very dark. But also it’s worth examining how unserious some of Amnesty’s quoted claims are: > lack of precise information from authorities to detainees’ families regarding their whereabouts, Because the gangs will bust them out > and concealment of the identity of the judges processing detainees. Because the gangs will kill the judges

dataflow 2y ago

> Amnesty International says they just threw huge numbers in prison without any due process Due process just means... process that is due. But (for better or for worse, depending on how you view this) it could totally be the case that nothing was due in the particular situation, at least legally. Since people look at this from a USA angle, here's the US constitution: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." Notice that in the scenario described, a right such as habeas corpus simply isn't due. You can't be violating due process if there was no process due. Notice this isn't pedantry; national security has always been something states have at least partially prioritized over individual rights. I make no judgment of the morals of the situation, but I thought it was worth pointing out that rights aren't as absolute (legally, anyway) as people think they are.