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> React is reported to be used by 39.5% of developers worldwide, while Vue.js is at 15.4%. The number of "apps" using just HTML+CSS is precisely zero, because t

> React is reported to be used by 39.5% of developers worldwide, while Vue.js is at 15.4%. The number of "apps" using just HTML+CSS is precisely zero, because those aren't "apps" they're documents. The options you present are: "either use a JS framework or don't use JavaScript at all". That's a false dichotomy. I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks.

dariusj18 2y ago
> I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks And once you reach sufficient project complexity, you will end up with just another homegrown framework, with all the lessons learned by mature frameworks, left to be fixed over the next 5 years.
- baobabKoodaa 2y ago
  Oh yeah? And when will that happen? Because people have been throwing this argument at me since at least 2014. I still haven't slipped on a banana peel and accidentally fallen on a homegrown framework. You don't just create a framework by accident.
  - dariusj18 2y ago
    I don't have any context, but I do have trouble imagining that any of your projects have scale/complexity above brochure-ware if you haven't run into this.
    - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
      If you have trouble imagining, here's one such project: https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija
      - quantadev 2y ago
        Even if you know of massive projects in JS, the problem isn't that they cannot exist, it's that maintaining them takes 100x the manpower it would in TypeScript.
      - philipwhiuk 2y ago
        Jesus Christ, a 1300 line single file codebase.
        baobabKoodaa 2y ago
        Not a single file codebase
        quantadev 2y ago
        > Not a single file codebase. Yes it is. App.js is all the code there is. You can't count the two other files with 10 lines each. lol. Let's be honest here. And yeah for a tiny toy project like this you can get away with having zero design, zero architecture, zero object models, zero classes, and sure since everything is zero, we can throw in "Zero TypeScript" and "Zero Frameworks". Looks like some high-schooler's first ever coding project.
        baobabKoodaa 2y ago
        > App.js is all the code there is No, it's not. Chatbot.js is 3400 LOC. There's literally only 4 JS files in the whole repo and you couldn't be bothered to check how much code they have? Even after I told the other guy who made the same false claim "no, it's not a single file codebase"? Jesus you people are insufferable. So obnoxiously confident while being wrong about easily verifiable facts. > tiny toy project Huh? 99% of web development is about rendering text and images. This project is moving your mouse inside a web browser & provides a plausible chat experience without a language model. That's more ambitious than just about any actual work project I've seen.
        2y ago
quantadev 2y ago
For any large project you need type-safe languages. 99% of experience developers (10+ years of experience) will agree with this opinion. Sure you can develop very large projects in JS, as long as you don't mind being 1% as efficient, and having 100x more bugs. In JS, refactoring a huge project is the biggest nightmare in the world and really no human is capable of doing a great job of it in a reasonable time, even if they have a high IQ and decades of experience.
- baobabKoodaa 2y ago
  I don't share your opinion but I'm too tired to go into another JS vs TS debate
  - quantadev 2y ago
    Me too. lol. People who don't think type-safe languages are important are the ones who simply haven't yet run into the problems you run into without type safety, and no amount of HackerNews posting is going to suddenly give them the experience to understand.
    - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
      "People who disagree with me on the topic of """best language/framework""" are ignorant and lack experience to see how {my_favorite_language} is actually the bestest"
      - quantadev 2y ago
        I literally said the exact opposite. I don't care what language you use as long as it's type-safe. Any language that lacks type-safety is completely inappropriate for large-scale projects. There's no seasoned developer on the planet who disagrees with that sentiment. None. Zilch. If some guy claims to be #1) decades experienced and #2) doesn't like type-safe languages, then he's lying about either #1 or #2 or both.
        2y ago

dariusj18 2y ago

> I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks And once you reach sufficient project complexity, you will end up with just another homegrown framework, with all the lessons learned by mature frameworks, left to be fixed over the next 5 years.

baobabKoodaa 2y ago
Oh yeah? And when will that happen? Because people have been throwing this argument at me since at least 2014. I still haven't slipped on a banana peel and accidentally fallen on a homegrown framework. You don't just create a framework by accident.
- dariusj18 2y ago
  I don't have any context, but I do have trouble imagining that any of your projects have scale/complexity above brochure-ware if you haven't run into this.
  - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
    If you have trouble imagining, here's one such project: https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija
    - quantadev 2y ago
      Even if you know of massive projects in JS, the problem isn't that they cannot exist, it's that maintaining them takes 100x the manpower it would in TypeScript.
    - philipwhiuk 2y ago
      Jesus Christ, a 1300 line single file codebase.
      - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
        Not a single file codebase
        quantadev 2y ago
        > Not a single file codebase. Yes it is. App.js is all the code there is. You can't count the two other files with 10 lines each. lol. Let's be honest here. And yeah for a tiny toy project like this you can get away with having zero design, zero architecture, zero object models, zero classes, and sure since everything is zero, we can throw in "Zero TypeScript" and "Zero Frameworks". Looks like some high-schooler's first ever coding project.
        baobabKoodaa 2y ago
        > App.js is all the code there is No, it's not. Chatbot.js is 3400 LOC. There's literally only 4 JS files in the whole repo and you couldn't be bothered to check how much code they have? Even after I told the other guy who made the same false claim "no, it's not a single file codebase"? Jesus you people are insufferable. So obnoxiously confident while being wrong about easily verifiable facts. > tiny toy project Huh? 99% of web development is about rendering text and images. This project is moving your mouse inside a web browser & provides a plausible chat experience without a language model. That's more ambitious than just about any actual work project I've seen.
        2y ago

quantadev 2y ago

For any large project you need type-safe languages. 99% of experience developers (10+ years of experience) will agree with this opinion. Sure you can develop very large projects in JS, as long as you don't mind being 1% as efficient, and having 100x more bugs. In JS, refactoring a huge project is the biggest nightmare in the world and really no human is capable of doing a great job of it in a reasonable time, even if they have a high IQ and decades of experience.

baobabKoodaa 2y ago
I don't share your opinion but I'm too tired to go into another JS vs TS debate
- quantadev 2y ago
  Me too. lol. People who don't think type-safe languages are important are the ones who simply haven't yet run into the problems you run into without type safety, and no amount of HackerNews posting is going to suddenly give them the experience to understand.
  - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
    "People who disagree with me on the topic of """best language/framework""" are ignorant and lack experience to see how {my_favorite_language} is actually the bestest"
    - quantadev 2y ago
      I literally said the exact opposite. I don't care what language you use as long as it's type-safe. Any language that lacks type-safety is completely inappropriate for large-scale projects. There's no seasoned developer on the planet who disagrees with that sentiment. None. Zilch. If some guy claims to be #1) decades experienced and #2) doesn't like type-safe languages, then he's lying about either #1 or #2 or both.
      - 2y ago