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What's the plan to do right by people who were duped into buying HW3 cars: https://electrek.co/2024/10/23/elon-musk-finally-admits-teslas-hw3-might-not-support

What's the plan to do right by people who were duped into buying HW3 cars: https://electrek.co/2024/10/23/elon-musk-finally-admits-teslas-hw3-might-not-support-full-self-driving/ https://electrek.co/2024/10/23/elon-musk-finally-admits-tesl... Those buyers were made specific promises which Tesla has never delivered on: https://electrek.co/2024/08/24/tesla-deletes-its-blog-post-stating-all-cars-have-self-driving-hardware/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/24/tesla-deletes-its-blog-post-s...

FollowingTheDao 2y ago
Since when do Tech Companies have to actually have deliverables? I thought they were only supoosed to break things?
geon 2y ago
No wonder Musk wants to dismantle consumer protection. https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2024/nov/28/elon-musk-cfpb-trump https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2024/nov/28/elon-musk...
wepple 2y ago
“duped” isn’t the right word here. People optimistically paid money for a thing that didn’t exist, in the hopes that it would. People bought into a kickstarter and are entering the “find out” stage
- chipdart 2y ago
  > “duped” isn’t the right word here. "Duped" is an accurate description of how Elon Musk has been treating customers who bought a Tesla car with a HW3. He's been repeatedly promising those buyers that full self driving is just a software update away. Now apparently FSD is an impossibility and the company is rushing to hire drivers? In the very least it's bait-and-switch scam.
  - andrewinardeer 2y ago
    Aren't the drivers being hired for their recently announced Robo-Taxi fleet and not private, personal cars like your comment suggests?
    - chipdart 2y ago
      > Aren't the drivers being hired for their recently announced Robo-Taxi fleet (...) The robo-taxi fleet is scheduled to be launched by 2026. This means Tesla, in spite of Elon Musk's wild claims, is not counting on providing anything remotely similar to FSD until at least 2026.
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  Kickstarter is a very different thing. You are paying for a product that does not exist yet in the hopes that it will. For Tesla, you paid for a product that exists and outright does not have what the manufacturer claims. That's false advertising.
  - mgiannopoulos 2y ago
    The label on the Tesla site in the past has always been “FSD capable”. For years the FSD software was only available to a very small set of beta testers even if you had paid for it. People still have their money knowing they were not getting something at that monent. Not sure why we pretend they were fooled somehow.
    - fzeroracer 2y ago
      You do realize that's still false advertising, right? People bought these cars because the advertising line was 'All Tesla cars have full self-driving hardware'. If you bought a computer that advertised itself as having a top of the line video card, but then as it turns out the company wouldn't let you use it unless you paid extra and then outright prevented you from using it entirely I assume you would say the company was trying to scam you. If they didn't want people to buy into FSD then they shouldn't have advertised and sold their cars with FSD.
      - mgiannopoulos 2y ago
        The didn’t “sell their cars with FSD”. FSD was always an optional software package, which was clearly mentioned as not available at the time. The grand majority of HW3 owners have not purchased FSD.
        jantissler 2y ago
        Then the "optional software package" was/is the false advertising. And it is irrelevant how many people bought it.
      - 2y ago
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Didn’t realize Teslas were sold on Kickstarter. Could you show us where?
  - wepple 2y ago
    My reference to kickstarter was a metaphor, so I’m using kickstarter to describe a similar situation that occurred when people bought a capability that didn’t exist in the hopes that it would.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      I would bet if you surveyed Kickstarter backers versus Tesla backers "How confident were you that this product would come to market as-described?", you'd see a huge difference. Is comparison to Kickstarter just a post-facto excuse for false advertising that anyone can use for any product, or does just Tesla/Musk get this benefit for some reason?
      - wepple 2y ago
        Musk gets special benefit because anyone paying attention knows that he’s 5 years late on everything. I’m fairly sure we were supposed to be living on Mars several years ago, by now. I agree it’s false advertising, and musk should be held accountable for that. But there has to be a little responsibility on consumers who pay for a thing that does exist and worse has actually never existed in the universe (camera-fed self driving)
olddustytrail 2y ago
I've never heard of this and don't know what HW3 is, yet I will still speculate that the plan is "If that turns out to be the case, we will upgrade those who bought HW3 FSD for free. And we have designed the system to be upgradable." which is what it says in the link you provided.
croes 2y ago
No the first time for Tesla. Fool me once … If people don’t learn it’s on them. Same with Trump.
- sshine 2y ago
  > Same with Trump. With buying cars you get to choose between more than two candidates, you can choose "wait", and the other candidate isn't worse.
  - croes 2y ago
    Actually there are more than two candidates
    - sshine 2y ago
      Not effectively. The consequence of voting for a 3rd minority candidate is that your vote will effectively be wasted. Or, perhaps in a less pessimistic view, a protest vote, a flavored way of blank voting. In several European voting systems, parties form coalitions, so your vote will only go to waste if the party you vote for fails to cross some minimum boundary, e.g. 2%. As for buying electric cars, you still have at least 10 models to choose from that won't have a really bad, unfixable experience, or a high risk of the car brand going bankrupt. So comparing buying Tesla and voting Trump seems a little simple.
      - croes 2y ago
        It’s not about choice, it’s about getting fooled. Both Trump and Musk fooled their supporters. If that doesn’t disqualify them, it’s not their fault. If you still believe these liars, you’re to blame.
        sshine 2y ago
        I'm not sure what to say. I drive a Tesla, and I never believed it would drive by itself. When it comes to the election, it's a big circus and everyone who believes the primary candidates are fools. Blame is making someone responsible for your misery, you don't have to do that.
sixQuarks 2y ago
Musk has said HW3 owners will get free upgrades. It’s easy to replace the hardware and cameras.
- peutetre 2y ago
  If it's easy, why hasn't it happened? HW4 doesn't have the same form factor as HW3. They'll have to make a HW3.5. They won't replace the cameras. So like I say, what's the plan? More empty words from Musk count for nothing.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  If you believe that I have a FSD deposit to sell you...
grecy 2y ago
Those cars will get free upgrades, if required.
- John23832 2y ago
  The cars don't have the inbuilt technology. I also HIGHLY doubt that Tesla would upgrade all cars at their own expense.
  - grecy 2y ago
    They’ve done it before and will again
    - nunez 2y ago
      Yup. They did it for HW2 to 3 for the S and HW2.5 to 3 for the 3.
      - John23832 2y ago
        Please show me where Tesla paid for a hardware upgrade for existing users/customers to a self driving standard.
        nunez 2y ago
        [flagged]
        John23832 2y ago
        So the answer is that you cannot show me where Tesla paid for FSD hardware upgrades out of pocket for customers? It’s simple, post a link. The rest of your post really is gibberish.
        nunez 2y ago
        [flagged]
hatenberg 2y ago
The plan was regulatory capture and defanging. It worked.
John23832 2y ago
I can't speak for Tesla, but Elon's plan is to get rid of the Bureau of Consumer Protection which is the institution that you would appeal to in such cases. Edit: Open and honest edit, Elon wants to get rid of the CFPB, not the FTC's BCP.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- nunez 2y ago
  Regardless of the agency under question, wouldn't "deleting" them require an act of Congress and significant analysis?
  - John23832 2y ago
    In the US bureaucracy, if you control the executive branch you can stop enforcement which is effectively the same thing. That is an act solely delegated to the executive/president. The House can also just not fund the particular agency. Both of those options are more expedient than official removal.
nunez 2y ago
1. HW3 is capable of running the latest iteration of FSD, which is very very good. In fact, the FSD stack still targets HW3, despite HW4 having significantly better hardware. 2. Tesla stated that they would upgrade HW3 cars if they run too far behind HW4...not that this means much. 3. Tesla has also been consistent about HW3 lagging behind HW4 while still being at least 3x safer than human drivers...not that this means much either.
- peutetre 2y ago
  > HW3 is capable of running the latest iteration of FSD No. It isn't: https://electrek.co/2024/11/14/tesla-pushes-end-to-end-neural-networks-for-highway-driving-but-only-for-newer-vehicles/ https://electrek.co/2024/11/14/tesla-pushes-end-to-end-neura... https://electrek.co/2024/10/31/tesla-gives-update-on-self-driving-roadmap-v13-slips-more-promises/ https://electrek.co/2024/10/31/tesla-gives-update-on-self-dr... It's funny. The bigger the lie the more people will believe it and ardently defend it.

FollowingTheDao 2y ago

Since when do Tech Companies have to actually have deliverables? I thought they were only supoosed to break things?

geon 2y ago

No wonder Musk wants to dismantle consumer protection. https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2024/nov/28/elon-musk-cfpb-trump https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2024/nov/28/elon-musk...

wepple 2y ago

“duped” isn’t the right word here. People optimistically paid money for a thing that didn’t exist, in the hopes that it would. People bought into a kickstarter and are entering the “find out” stage

chipdart 2y ago
> “duped” isn’t the right word here. "Duped" is an accurate description of how Elon Musk has been treating customers who bought a Tesla car with a HW3. He's been repeatedly promising those buyers that full self driving is just a software update away. Now apparently FSD is an impossibility and the company is rushing to hire drivers? In the very least it's bait-and-switch scam.
- andrewinardeer 2y ago
  Aren't the drivers being hired for their recently announced Robo-Taxi fleet and not private, personal cars like your comment suggests?
  - chipdart 2y ago
    > Aren't the drivers being hired for their recently announced Robo-Taxi fleet (...) The robo-taxi fleet is scheduled to be launched by 2026. This means Tesla, in spite of Elon Musk's wild claims, is not counting on providing anything remotely similar to FSD until at least 2026.
fzeroracer 2y ago
Kickstarter is a very different thing. You are paying for a product that does not exist yet in the hopes that it will. For Tesla, you paid for a product that exists and outright does not have what the manufacturer claims. That's false advertising.
- mgiannopoulos 2y ago
  The label on the Tesla site in the past has always been “FSD capable”. For years the FSD software was only available to a very small set of beta testers even if you had paid for it. People still have their money knowing they were not getting something at that monent. Not sure why we pretend they were fooled somehow.
  - fzeroracer 2y ago
    You do realize that's still false advertising, right? People bought these cars because the advertising line was 'All Tesla cars have full self-driving hardware'. If you bought a computer that advertised itself as having a top of the line video card, but then as it turns out the company wouldn't let you use it unless you paid extra and then outright prevented you from using it entirely I assume you would say the company was trying to scam you. If they didn't want people to buy into FSD then they shouldn't have advertised and sold their cars with FSD.
    - mgiannopoulos 2y ago
      The didn’t “sell their cars with FSD”. FSD was always an optional software package, which was clearly mentioned as not available at the time. The grand majority of HW3 owners have not purchased FSD.
      - jantissler 2y ago
        Then the "optional software package" was/is the false advertising. And it is irrelevant how many people bought it.
    - 2y ago
llamaimperative 2y ago
Didn’t realize Teslas were sold on Kickstarter. Could you show us where?
- wepple 2y ago
  My reference to kickstarter was a metaphor, so I’m using kickstarter to describe a similar situation that occurred when people bought a capability that didn’t exist in the hopes that it would.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    I would bet if you surveyed Kickstarter backers versus Tesla backers "How confident were you that this product would come to market as-described?", you'd see a huge difference. Is comparison to Kickstarter just a post-facto excuse for false advertising that anyone can use for any product, or does just Tesla/Musk get this benefit for some reason?
    - wepple 2y ago
      Musk gets special benefit because anyone paying attention knows that he’s 5 years late on everything. I’m fairly sure we were supposed to be living on Mars several years ago, by now. I agree it’s false advertising, and musk should be held accountable for that. But there has to be a little responsibility on consumers who pay for a thing that does exist and worse has actually never existed in the universe (camera-fed self driving)

olddustytrail 2y ago

I've never heard of this and don't know what HW3 is, yet I will still speculate that the plan is "If that turns out to be the case, we will upgrade those who bought HW3 FSD for free. And we have designed the system to be upgradable." which is what it says in the link you provided.

croes 2y ago

No the first time for Tesla. Fool me once … If people don’t learn it’s on them. Same with Trump.

sshine 2y ago
> Same with Trump. With buying cars you get to choose between more than two candidates, you can choose "wait", and the other candidate isn't worse.
- croes 2y ago
  Actually there are more than two candidates
  - sshine 2y ago
    Not effectively. The consequence of voting for a 3rd minority candidate is that your vote will effectively be wasted. Or, perhaps in a less pessimistic view, a protest vote, a flavored way of blank voting. In several European voting systems, parties form coalitions, so your vote will only go to waste if the party you vote for fails to cross some minimum boundary, e.g. 2%. As for buying electric cars, you still have at least 10 models to choose from that won't have a really bad, unfixable experience, or a high risk of the car brand going bankrupt. So comparing buying Tesla and voting Trump seems a little simple.
    - croes 2y ago
      It’s not about choice, it’s about getting fooled. Both Trump and Musk fooled their supporters. If that doesn’t disqualify them, it’s not their fault. If you still believe these liars, you’re to blame.
      - sshine 2y ago
        I'm not sure what to say. I drive a Tesla, and I never believed it would drive by itself. When it comes to the election, it's a big circus and everyone who believes the primary candidates are fools. Blame is making someone responsible for your misery, you don't have to do that.

sixQuarks 2y ago

Musk has said HW3 owners will get free upgrades. It’s easy to replace the hardware and cameras.

peutetre 2y ago
If it's easy, why hasn't it happened? HW4 doesn't have the same form factor as HW3. They'll have to make a HW3.5. They won't replace the cameras. So like I say, what's the plan? More empty words from Musk count for nothing.
IshKebab 2y ago
If you believe that I have a FSD deposit to sell you...

grecy 2y ago

Those cars will get free upgrades, if required.

John23832 2y ago
The cars don't have the inbuilt technology. I also HIGHLY doubt that Tesla would upgrade all cars at their own expense.
- grecy 2y ago
  They’ve done it before and will again
  - nunez 2y ago
    Yup. They did it for HW2 to 3 for the S and HW2.5 to 3 for the 3.
    - John23832 2y ago
      Please show me where Tesla paid for a hardware upgrade for existing users/customers to a self driving standard.
      - nunez 2y ago
        [flagged]
        John23832 2y ago
        So the answer is that you cannot show me where Tesla paid for FSD hardware upgrades out of pocket for customers? It’s simple, post a link. The rest of your post really is gibberish.
        nunez 2y ago
        [flagged]

hatenberg 2y ago

The plan was regulatory capture and defanging. It worked.

John23832 2y ago

I can't speak for Tesla, but Elon's plan is to get rid of the Bureau of Consumer Protection which is the institution that you would appeal to in such cases. Edit: Open and honest edit, Elon wants to get rid of the CFPB, not the FTC's BCP.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nunez 2y ago
Regardless of the agency under question, wouldn't "deleting" them require an act of Congress and significant analysis?
- John23832 2y ago
  In the US bureaucracy, if you control the executive branch you can stop enforcement which is effectively the same thing. That is an act solely delegated to the executive/president. The House can also just not fund the particular agency. Both of those options are more expedient than official removal.

nunez 2y ago

1. HW3 is capable of running the latest iteration of FSD, which is very very good. In fact, the FSD stack still targets HW3, despite HW4 having significantly better hardware. 2. Tesla stated that they would upgrade HW3 cars if they run too far behind HW4...not that this means much. 3. Tesla has also been consistent about HW3 lagging behind HW4 while still being at least 3x safer than human drivers...not that this means much either.

peutetre 2y ago
> HW3 is capable of running the latest iteration of FSD No. It isn't: https://electrek.co/2024/11/14/tesla-pushes-end-to-end-neural-networks-for-highway-driving-but-only-for-newer-vehicles/ https://electrek.co/2024/11/14/tesla-pushes-end-to-end-neura... https://electrek.co/2024/10/31/tesla-gives-update-on-self-driving-roadmap-v13-slips-more-promises/ https://electrek.co/2024/10/31/tesla-gives-update-on-self-dr... It's funny. The bigger the lie the more people will believe it and ardently defend it.