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The people who don't think React (or Vue) is important are the same ones who have never worked on a large project with lots of screen updates and state changes

The people who don't think React (or Vue) is important are the same ones who have never worked on a large project with lots of screen updates and state changes that absolutely cannot be avoided. React is still #1 in popularity, and the most crucial tool for almost any web developer (aside from using TypeScript, instead of plain JS which is also critical for large projects) React is reported to be used by 39.5% of developers worldwide, while Vue.js is at 15.4%. The number of "apps" using just HTML+CSS is precisely zero, because those aren't "apps" they're documents.

xcrunner529 2y ago
Ha and jquery was pretty high too. How is that an argument?
- quantadev 2y ago
  I'll happily ditch React once something better emerges. I've been doing web development since 1998, so I'm used to change.
goosejuice 2y ago
Generalizing much? React is as popular as it is because of inertia. React holds an important space but its hardly the only tool that can succeed in a "large project with lots of screen updates and state changes". That's ridiculous.
- quantadev 2y ago
  The reason I said "(or Vue)" was specifically to say that there are other leading frameworks. I didn't say "or Angluar" because in my opinion it's a race between React and Vue at this point. But if you think there's a third contender, let me know. I'm always looking to learn. My main point was to compare "frameworks" v.s. "no frameworks", rather than to say that React is best, but if you want my opinion then yes I do say React is indeed the best, and I admit it's an opinion not a fact. lol.
  - cyann 2y ago
    Angluar -> I'm using this from now on
    - quantadev 2y ago
      In case I was unclear, I consider Angular dead and obsolete.
      - cyann 2y ago
        Same, anGLuar sounds, for a french speaker, like https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engluer https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engluer 1. to birdlime 2. (reflexive) to get bogged down
        quantadev 2y ago
        In case I was unclear, I consider French dead and obsolete.
      - riku_iki 2y ago
        > In case I was unclear, I consider Angular dead and obsolete. maybe you would expand on this? I have no intention to challenge you, just genuinely curios if and why I should consider vue over agnular for new project (I use angular already).
        quantadev 2y ago
        Maybe Angular is still used a lot, in legacy projects. I just mean for starting a new project, imo most people will choose React or Vue in 2024, right? I never used Angular myself, but have used both React and Vue a lot.
        riku_iki 2y ago
        I don't have strong insights about current agnular popularity. I think at least teams/companies which built strong expertise in angular will continue using it for new projects unless there is some big reason not to. SO trends show that angular is more popular, while vue is loosing share (not necessary absolute number): https://trends.stackoverflow.co/?tags=angular,vue.js,reactjs https://trends.stackoverflow.co/?tags=angular,vue.js,reactjs
peterkelly 2y ago
WordPress relies on server-generated HTML and its admin interface is a fairly complex "app", especially once you factor in the plugin ecosystem. According to [1], it's used on 43.7% of all public websites. [1] https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cm-wordpress https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cm-wordpress
- quantadev 2y ago
  If every user input causes a page refresh, that's not an "app" that's a "website". If you don't have any executable code (i.e. Javascript), but just form submits, yeah I agree that's what most of the web is, and as you pointed out most of the web is websites not web apps.
  - simonw 2y ago
    Have you explored cross-document view transitions? Would you classify something that uses those as an app or a site? https://developer.chrome.com/docs/web-platform/view-transitions#cross-document_view_transitions https://developer.chrome.com/docs/web-platform/view-transiti...
    - threatofrain 2y ago
      That's actually rather new so we shall see how frontend practice reacts. I've only seen a few instances of it out in the wild so far.
    - quantadev 2y ago
      I'm not saying my own definition of "app" is the only correct definition, but in my opinion only if I do a click and something on the SAME page changes, then it's an app. Transitioning to different pages isn't an app, imo.
      - simonw 2y ago
        With this browser feature a navigation to a new page can look like only part of the page changes - without needing any JavaScript.
thesuavefactor 2y ago
You can't be more wrong. You're saying that only logic performed on the client side can be considered an application? State can be stored in the server. Screen changes can be done by loading html, it doesn't need a framework. React is far from crucial for web development, but people haven't learned anything else the last decade. Most front end developers these days don't even know what a template engine is, and some don't even know how to create a website without a backend rest api that spews json data.
- quantadev 2y ago
  I wasn't comparing SSR to non-SSR (Server Side Rendering). As long as you can refresh portions of a webpage (or states of GUI elements), after a user action (button click or whatever), that's fine. However the reason my Dialog Boxes open in a millisecond, and close in a millisecond too, is because I choose to render them locally. I'm not against SSR tho, as a viable concept. That's a different complex discussion where there are trade-offs to consider.
baobabKoodaa 2y ago
> React is reported to be used by 39.5% of developers worldwide, while Vue.js is at 15.4%. The number of "apps" using just HTML+CSS is precisely zero, because those aren't "apps" they're documents. The options you present are: "either use a JS framework or don't use JavaScript at all". That's a false dichotomy. I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks.
- dariusj18 2y ago
  > I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks And once you reach sufficient project complexity, you will end up with just another homegrown framework, with all the lessons learned by mature frameworks, left to be fixed over the next 5 years.
  - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
    Oh yeah? And when will that happen? Because people have been throwing this argument at me since at least 2014. I still haven't slipped on a banana peel and accidentally fallen on a homegrown framework. You don't just create a framework by accident.
    - dariusj18 2y ago
      I don't have any context, but I do have trouble imagining that any of your projects have scale/complexity above brochure-ware if you haven't run into this.
      - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
        If you have trouble imagining, here's one such project: https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija
        quantadev 2y ago
        Even if you know of massive projects in JS, the problem isn't that they cannot exist, it's that maintaining them takes 100x the manpower it would in TypeScript.
palmfacehn 2y ago
Popularity is not an argument for merit. Diabetes and heart disease are popular. Taylor Swift is popular. It doesn't follow that I should desire these things. If appeals to the status quo were reasonable arguments, there would be no room to improve on what is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
- quantadev 2y ago
  Popular is not a synonym for "common", like you're implying it is. They're different things. Popular means desired. The more popular a piece of software is, the more likely it is to have had the bugs worked out of it, the more people there are reporting issues, the more answers there are on StackOverflow, the more likely AI/LLMs are to be able to answer questions, the more secure it's likely to be, the more stuff interoperates with it, etc. Popularity alone isn't a good reason to select something, but it's a good data point, with which so judge viability.

xcrunner529 2y ago

Ha and jquery was pretty high too. How is that an argument?

quantadev 2y ago
I'll happily ditch React once something better emerges. I've been doing web development since 1998, so I'm used to change.

goosejuice 2y ago

Generalizing much? React is as popular as it is because of inertia. React holds an important space but its hardly the only tool that can succeed in a "large project with lots of screen updates and state changes". That's ridiculous.

quantadev 2y ago
The reason I said "(or Vue)" was specifically to say that there are other leading frameworks. I didn't say "or Angluar" because in my opinion it's a race between React and Vue at this point. But if you think there's a third contender, let me know. I'm always looking to learn. My main point was to compare "frameworks" v.s. "no frameworks", rather than to say that React is best, but if you want my opinion then yes I do say React is indeed the best, and I admit it's an opinion not a fact. lol.
- cyann 2y ago
  Angluar -> I'm using this from now on
  - quantadev 2y ago
    In case I was unclear, I consider Angular dead and obsolete.
    - cyann 2y ago
      Same, anGLuar sounds, for a french speaker, like https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engluer https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engluer 1. to birdlime 2. (reflexive) to get bogged down
      - quantadev 2y ago
        In case I was unclear, I consider French dead and obsolete.
    - riku_iki 2y ago
      > In case I was unclear, I consider Angular dead and obsolete. maybe you would expand on this? I have no intention to challenge you, just genuinely curios if and why I should consider vue over agnular for new project (I use angular already).
      - quantadev 2y ago
        Maybe Angular is still used a lot, in legacy projects. I just mean for starting a new project, imo most people will choose React or Vue in 2024, right? I never used Angular myself, but have used both React and Vue a lot.
        riku_iki 2y ago
        I don't have strong insights about current agnular popularity. I think at least teams/companies which built strong expertise in angular will continue using it for new projects unless there is some big reason not to. SO trends show that angular is more popular, while vue is loosing share (not necessary absolute number): https://trends.stackoverflow.co/?tags=angular,vue.js,reactjs https://trends.stackoverflow.co/?tags=angular,vue.js,reactjs

peterkelly 2y ago

WordPress relies on server-generated HTML and its admin interface is a fairly complex "app", especially once you factor in the plugin ecosystem. According to [1], it's used on 43.7% of all public websites. [1] https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cm-wordpress https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cm-wordpress

quantadev 2y ago
If every user input causes a page refresh, that's not an "app" that's a "website". If you don't have any executable code (i.e. Javascript), but just form submits, yeah I agree that's what most of the web is, and as you pointed out most of the web is websites not web apps.
- simonw 2y ago
  Have you explored cross-document view transitions? Would you classify something that uses those as an app or a site? https://developer.chrome.com/docs/web-platform/view-transitions#cross-document_view_transitions https://developer.chrome.com/docs/web-platform/view-transiti...
  - threatofrain 2y ago
    That's actually rather new so we shall see how frontend practice reacts. I've only seen a few instances of it out in the wild so far.
  - quantadev 2y ago
    I'm not saying my own definition of "app" is the only correct definition, but in my opinion only if I do a click and something on the SAME page changes, then it's an app. Transitioning to different pages isn't an app, imo.
    - simonw 2y ago
      With this browser feature a navigation to a new page can look like only part of the page changes - without needing any JavaScript.

thesuavefactor 2y ago

You can't be more wrong. You're saying that only logic performed on the client side can be considered an application? State can be stored in the server. Screen changes can be done by loading html, it doesn't need a framework. React is far from crucial for web development, but people haven't learned anything else the last decade. Most front end developers these days don't even know what a template engine is, and some don't even know how to create a website without a backend rest api that spews json data.

quantadev 2y ago
I wasn't comparing SSR to non-SSR (Server Side Rendering). As long as you can refresh portions of a webpage (or states of GUI elements), after a user action (button click or whatever), that's fine. However the reason my Dialog Boxes open in a millisecond, and close in a millisecond too, is because I choose to render them locally. I'm not against SSR tho, as a viable concept. That's a different complex discussion where there are trade-offs to consider.

baobabKoodaa 2y ago

> React is reported to be used by 39.5% of developers worldwide, while Vue.js is at 15.4%. The number of "apps" using just HTML+CSS is precisely zero, because those aren't "apps" they're documents. The options you present are: "either use a JS framework or don't use JavaScript at all". That's a false dichotomy. I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks.

dariusj18 2y ago
> I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks And once you reach sufficient project complexity, you will end up with just another homegrown framework, with all the lessons learned by mature frameworks, left to be fixed over the next 5 years.
- baobabKoodaa 2y ago
  Oh yeah? And when will that happen? Because people have been throwing this argument at me since at least 2014. I still haven't slipped on a banana peel and accidentally fallen on a homegrown framework. You don't just create a framework by accident.
  - dariusj18 2y ago
    I don't have any context, but I do have trouble imagining that any of your projects have scale/complexity above brochure-ware if you haven't run into this.
    - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
      If you have trouble imagining, here's one such project: https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija
      - quantadev 2y ago
        Even if you know of massive projects in JS, the problem isn't that they cannot exist, it's that maintaining them takes 100x the manpower it would in TypeScript.

palmfacehn 2y ago

Popularity is not an argument for merit. Diabetes and heart disease are popular. Taylor Swift is popular. It doesn't follow that I should desire these things. If appeals to the status quo were reasonable arguments, there would be no room to improve on what is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

quantadev 2y ago
Popular is not a synonym for "common", like you're implying it is. They're different things. Popular means desired. The more popular a piece of software is, the more likely it is to have had the bugs worked out of it, the more people there are reporting issues, the more answers there are on StackOverflow, the more likely AI/LLMs are to be able to answer questions, the more secure it's likely to be, the more stuff interoperates with it, etc. Popularity alone isn't a good reason to select something, but it's a good data point, with which so judge viability.