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I read through this to hopefully save all of you the clickbait and mid-way through nonsensical philosophical diatribe. It's a bit ranty and devoid of technicall

by 4ntiq 2y ago

I read through this to hopefully save all of you the clickbait and mid-way through nonsensical philosophical diatribe. It's a bit ranty and devoid of technically-caloric content. The author is advocating for use of plain HTML/SSR patterns and avoiding SPAs and complicated frameworks/libraries ala Angular/React/etc. It's an old thought that lines up with the "you don't need JS" crowd. Oh, and the author would like to kindly point out that React is legacy now. Because they said so. In case you didn't know.

refulgentis 2y ago
Heartily concur. It's a classic of an essay written by one of those tortured souls who cannot understand why everyone so blithely moves past the incisive, obvious, truths they share. With a topping of how this is all just solved by "giving a toss about the user", followed by a cloying apology for being vulgar I'm not in web and am amenable to a good web dev hot take but this simply isn't worth the time, it's an array of generic wisdom delivered as if it's specific, written with the effort of someone who is proud of themselves when you disagree.
- Spivak 2y ago
  I mean the graph in the article of Amazon vs Target vs Wayfair is pretty damning. And honestly you don't even need the graph, just go to their sites. Target is dog slow while Amazon loads instantly.
  - rafaelmn 2y ago
    > And honestly you don't even need the graph, just go to their sites. Target is dog slow while Amazon loads instantly. I was not able to notice any difference between them
    - simonw 2y ago
      Were you using a ~$2000 laptop on a broadband connection?
      - rafaelmn 2y ago
        Out of curiosity I checked on iPhone 14/4g and 2018 Intel MBP. I don't get what the point of these comments is ? If you're using RPI with a 2g connection you'll have a bad experience shopping at the site ? And somehow that's supposed to factor in to my tech stack decisions ?
        xcrunner529 2y ago
        And it doesn’t even have to be that. Just someone at the wrong end from a cell phone tower or in a clogged one from a sports event or something.
        simonw 2y ago
        Alex's position is that the average consumer is on a cheap Android phone, which has severe CPU weaknesses compared to any iPhone from the last ~five years: https://infrequently.org/2024/01/performance-inequality-gap-2024/#device-performance https://infrequently.org/2024/01/performance-inequality-gap-... Software engineers tend not to experience the web on the same class of device as most of their users.
        ecosystem 2y ago
        But is the average Target shopper on a cheap Android phone accessing over non-broadband? Wayfair? It's a fair point to note devs and users might have different devices, but in some cases they don't and the decision to use React might be well-founded with that fact.
        jmye 2y ago
        Do you not care about most of your potential customers, or do you only cater to high net worth people? If so, then sure, substandard devices and connections can be ignored. If you’re Target, on the other hand, you probably shouldn’t ignore them. I find it extremely odd that this was even a question on this site. Do you think the problem you’re solving should impact your tech stack at all, or is your tech stack more important than the problem?
  - xcrunner529 2y ago
    Yep! Made me remember my bad target experiences as well. Love how that’s all ignored by some.
ganksalot 2y ago
o7 thanks, people like this who do not work in contexts with problems that React solves yet insist React is not solving problems are profoundly boring.
- hu3 2y ago
  No need for personal attacks. And there's also the other side: people who insist in overusing React. Perhaps that's what the author refers to. I for one have see HTMX eat React for breakfast in a few of my clients during consulting.
  - synergy20 2y ago
    Really? HTMX for me brings spaghetti code on the server side. Fine for small projects but not so for large ones. I would prefer the clear separation between frontend and backend beyond small scale projects.
    - wordofx 2y ago
      React does not create a clear separation. Anyone who claims that hasn’t worked on any react bigger than a todo list. If you struggle with backend code then you’re just not a good backend developer. Maybe just stick to HTML/CSS.
  - ganksalot 2y ago
    > No need for personal attacks. i don't know about all that, but this is an incredibly tired diatribe. > Perhaps that's what the author refers to. they are clearly not.
    - sakesun 2y ago
      They are clearly not. "In short, nobody should start a new project in the 2020s based on React. Full stop."
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > I for one have see HTMX eat React for breakfast in a few of my clients during consulting. What about the rest of them?
xcrunner529 2y ago
You can read it that way if you ignore the rest of the article, I guess. They simply are saying many (most?) sites do not need to be SPAs and the baggage that entails with load times and latency. Follow a process to determine what is really needed based on objective requirements and then use objective measures to ensure it does not degrade the experience. In most cases later frameworks are slow and bulky. I certainly hate using sites like X or Target on mobile. Random delayed loading of things, loss of scrolling position when going back, things just not loading the first time it delayed reactions. It sucks.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > Follow a process to determine what is really needed based on objective requirements and then use objective measures to ensure it does not degrade the experience. This is how you end up with an amalgam of legacy crap that no one wants to touch. I can’t read guarantee you that outside of big tech and a couple of unicorns started by experienced devs this will NEVER work reliably.
- x0x0 2y ago
  Nah, the rest of the article is not insightful either. eg React Native is dismissed in 5 sentences, with no real solution at all given to the basic problem of wanting to have a website and mobile apps without writing your app 3 times. Let alone a website + mobile apps + windows + mac clients. The suggested solutions do not address this need -- eg there's some Apache crap that no one I've heard of uses (it's renamed Adobe Phonegap crap that Adobe bailed on and tossed over to Apache); some random link to a 5 year old google i/o presentation; etc. As far as I know, there's basically 3 toolkits that offer this: React + derivates; Rails with Hotwire; and Flutter, which means trusting Google (fools only), and which has recently deprioritized desktop... so that's a rock solid foundation to pour millions of dollars of eng time into. And I guess Xamarin, if anyone is using that.
  - xcrunner529 2y ago
    I think sadly to that point there’s no solution given because there isn’t one. And the ones that promise it (RN) still has you doing tons of platform specific code and in some cases supporting even more platforms than just going native.
msoad 2y ago
React works because I can hire engineers that can be productive quickly. A lot of tech conversations leave the talent pool aside as if it's easy to find good engineers in all of the options you might have. The ecosystem is another aspect. You have so many great options for off the shelf components and libraries with React that you might not have with other frameworks. Before anyone mentions Custom Elements and Web Components, I must say I tried it. Gave it a lot of effort to be a solution but it is not!
- simonw 2y ago
  "React works because I can hire engineers that can be productive quickly. A lot of tech conversations leave the talent pool aside as if it's easy to find good engineers in all of the options you might have." That's covered in this section: https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#%22...we-need-to-be-able-to-hire-easily%22 https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#%22... "The ecosystem is another aspect. You have so many great options for off the shelf components and libraries with React that you might not have with other frameworks." That's covered here: https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#%22...the-ecosystem...%22 https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#%22...
  - sakesun 2y ago
    I think people prefer ecosystem with many resourceful components https://github.com/brillout/awesome-react-components https://github.com/brillout/awesome-react-components This point is not directly covered in the article.
deleted 2y ago
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by 4ntiq 2y ago

refulgentis 2y ago

Heartily concur. It's a classic of an essay written by one of those tortured souls who cannot understand why everyone so blithely moves past the incisive, obvious, truths they share. With a topping of how this is all just solved by "giving a toss about the user", followed by a cloying apology for being vulgar I'm not in web and am amenable to a good web dev hot take but this simply isn't worth the time, it's an array of generic wisdom delivered as if it's specific, written with the effort of someone who is proud of themselves when you disagree.

Spivak 2y ago
I mean the graph in the article of Amazon vs Target vs Wayfair is pretty damning. And honestly you don't even need the graph, just go to their sites. Target is dog slow while Amazon loads instantly.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  > And honestly you don't even need the graph, just go to their sites. Target is dog slow while Amazon loads instantly. I was not able to notice any difference between them
  - simonw 2y ago
    Were you using a ~$2000 laptop on a broadband connection?
    - rafaelmn 2y ago
      Out of curiosity I checked on iPhone 14/4g and 2018 Intel MBP. I don't get what the point of these comments is ? If you're using RPI with a 2g connection you'll have a bad experience shopping at the site ? And somehow that's supposed to factor in to my tech stack decisions ?
      - xcrunner529 2y ago
        And it doesn’t even have to be that. Just someone at the wrong end from a cell phone tower or in a clogged one from a sports event or something.
      - simonw 2y ago
        Alex's position is that the average consumer is on a cheap Android phone, which has severe CPU weaknesses compared to any iPhone from the last ~five years: https://infrequently.org/2024/01/performance-inequality-gap-2024/#device-performance https://infrequently.org/2024/01/performance-inequality-gap-... Software engineers tend not to experience the web on the same class of device as most of their users.
        ecosystem 2y ago
        But is the average Target shopper on a cheap Android phone accessing over non-broadband? Wayfair? It's a fair point to note devs and users might have different devices, but in some cases they don't and the decision to use React might be well-founded with that fact.
      - jmye 2y ago
        Do you not care about most of your potential customers, or do you only cater to high net worth people? If so, then sure, substandard devices and connections can be ignored. If you’re Target, on the other hand, you probably shouldn’t ignore them. I find it extremely odd that this was even a question on this site. Do you think the problem you’re solving should impact your tech stack at all, or is your tech stack more important than the problem?
- xcrunner529 2y ago
  Yep! Made me remember my bad target experiences as well. Love how that’s all ignored by some.

ganksalot 2y ago

o7 thanks, people like this who do not work in contexts with problems that React solves yet insist React is not solving problems are profoundly boring.

hu3 2y ago
No need for personal attacks. And there's also the other side: people who insist in overusing React. Perhaps that's what the author refers to. I for one have see HTMX eat React for breakfast in a few of my clients during consulting.
- synergy20 2y ago
  Really? HTMX for me brings spaghetti code on the server side. Fine for small projects but not so for large ones. I would prefer the clear separation between frontend and backend beyond small scale projects.
  - wordofx 2y ago
    React does not create a clear separation. Anyone who claims that hasn’t worked on any react bigger than a todo list. If you struggle with backend code then you’re just not a good backend developer. Maybe just stick to HTML/CSS.
- ganksalot 2y ago
  > No need for personal attacks. i don't know about all that, but this is an incredibly tired diatribe. > Perhaps that's what the author refers to. they are clearly not.
  - sakesun 2y ago
    They are clearly not. "In short, nobody should start a new project in the 2020s based on React. Full stop."
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > I for one have see HTMX eat React for breakfast in a few of my clients during consulting. What about the rest of them?

xcrunner529 2y ago

You can read it that way if you ignore the rest of the article, I guess. They simply are saying many (most?) sites do not need to be SPAs and the baggage that entails with load times and latency. Follow a process to determine what is really needed based on objective requirements and then use objective measures to ensure it does not degrade the experience. In most cases later frameworks are slow and bulky. I certainly hate using sites like X or Target on mobile. Random delayed loading of things, loss of scrolling position when going back, things just not loading the first time it delayed reactions. It sucks.

wiseowise 2y ago
> Follow a process to determine what is really needed based on objective requirements and then use objective measures to ensure it does not degrade the experience. This is how you end up with an amalgam of legacy crap that no one wants to touch. I can’t read guarantee you that outside of big tech and a couple of unicorns started by experienced devs this will NEVER work reliably.
x0x0 2y ago
Nah, the rest of the article is not insightful either. eg React Native is dismissed in 5 sentences, with no real solution at all given to the basic problem of wanting to have a website and mobile apps without writing your app 3 times. Let alone a website + mobile apps + windows + mac clients. The suggested solutions do not address this need -- eg there's some Apache crap that no one I've heard of uses (it's renamed Adobe Phonegap crap that Adobe bailed on and tossed over to Apache); some random link to a 5 year old google i/o presentation; etc. As far as I know, there's basically 3 toolkits that offer this: React + derivates; Rails with Hotwire; and Flutter, which means trusting Google (fools only), and which has recently deprioritized desktop... so that's a rock solid foundation to pour millions of dollars of eng time into. And I guess Xamarin, if anyone is using that.
- xcrunner529 2y ago
  I think sadly to that point there’s no solution given because there isn’t one. And the ones that promise it (RN) still has you doing tons of platform specific code and in some cases supporting even more platforms than just going native.

msoad 2y ago

React works because I can hire engineers that can be productive quickly. A lot of tech conversations leave the talent pool aside as if it's easy to find good engineers in all of the options you might have. The ecosystem is another aspect. You have so many great options for off the shelf components and libraries with React that you might not have with other frameworks. Before anyone mentions Custom Elements and Web Components, I must say I tried it. Gave it a lot of effort to be a solution but it is not!

simonw 2y ago
"React works because I can hire engineers that can be productive quickly. A lot of tech conversations leave the talent pool aside as if it's easy to find good engineers in all of the options you might have." That's covered in this section: https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#%22...we-need-to-be-able-to-hire-easily%22 https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#%22... "The ecosystem is another aspect. You have so many great options for off the shelf components and libraries with React that you might not have with other frameworks." That's covered here: https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#%22...the-ecosystem...%22 https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#%22...
- sakesun 2y ago
  I think people prefer ecosystem with many resourceful components https://github.com/brillout/awesome-react-components https://github.com/brillout/awesome-react-components This point is not directly covered in the article.

deleted 2y ago

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