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We need to start making consumers pay for their negative externalities. Until the externality cost is not baked into product cost it won’t be paid for.

Aurornis 2y ago
Making manufacturers pay is equivalent to making consumers pay. The price is passed on to the consumer. The idea of “making manufacturers pay” in commoditized markets like tires is a feel-good myth. Any additional fees will go to the consumer price.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  Customers have a price ceiling though.
  - SideQuark 2y ago
    And producers have a price floor. In competitive markets production costs are nearing zero long term profits for manufacturers, so the externality costs must be passed on to consumers or the good stops getting made, since running at a loss isn’t a sustainable business.
- mvkel 2y ago
  Consumers are ultimately the party responsible for this pollution though, so we should pay.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    Paying taxes doesn’t reduce the harm. You can’t change a complex system with one knob.
    - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      Raising the cost incentivizes finding alternatives. Your statement would only be true if no alternatives are ever available.
beala 2y ago
You can tax producers, who will then increase prices. Or you can apply a tax to the product directly, and make it appear that the consumer is paying. But who is actually paying it is a question of tax incidence and a function of demand and supply elasticities.[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bdangubic 2y ago
consumers are already paying heftily… in virginia we pay 4.56% on the value of the vehicle every year plus there is an electic vehicle tax and also million other taxes and fees added. funny that state with “don’t thread on me” license plate is a bastion of socialism where you are not allowed to own a car but have to pay each year to the state for the right to own the car… the problem of course is all that insane amount of money collected will never be used for anything other than to pay for pensions for former government employees :)
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  Don't know about your state in particular, but most places in the US vehicle and fuel taxes are not enough to pay for road maintenance, and it is being subsidized out of other taxes. My state realized a couple of decades ago that they were going to have the same kind of problem with their pension system and recreated it to be self-funding. They still have the old pensions to cover but at least they aren't continuing to dig themselves a deeper hole.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    The original commenter stated: "We need to start making consumers pay for their negative externalities." Alls I was trying to say is that consumers are already paying crazy money. 26 states have property taxes on cars! In VA even with all that PLUS a special tax for EVs PLUS most of the roads around the DC metro area are tollroads it is still not enough :) I was being facetious talking about pension funds - what I was basically trying to say that whatever money is collected isn't going to where it should be going - if there is a budget shortfall (and wouldn't you know - there always is...) money gets appropriated to other things...
    - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      Yeah my first paragraph was the important one. Building and maintaining roads is really expensive.
      - 2y ago

Aurornis 2y ago

Making manufacturers pay is equivalent to making consumers pay. The price is passed on to the consumer. The idea of “making manufacturers pay” in commoditized markets like tires is a feel-good myth. Any additional fees will go to the consumer price.

HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
Customers have a price ceiling though.
- SideQuark 2y ago
  And producers have a price floor. In competitive markets production costs are nearing zero long term profits for manufacturers, so the externality costs must be passed on to consumers or the good stops getting made, since running at a loss isn’t a sustainable business.
mvkel 2y ago
Consumers are ultimately the party responsible for this pollution though, so we should pay.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  Paying taxes doesn’t reduce the harm. You can’t change a complex system with one knob.
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    Raising the cost incentivizes finding alternatives. Your statement would only be true if no alternatives are ever available.

beala 2y ago

You can tax producers, who will then increase prices. Or you can apply a tax to the product directly, and make it appear that the consumer is paying. But who is actually paying it is a question of tax incidence and a function of demand and supply elasticities.[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

bdangubic 2y ago

consumers are already paying heftily… in virginia we pay 4.56% on the value of the vehicle every year plus there is an electic vehicle tax and also million other taxes and fees added. funny that state with “don’t thread on me” license plate is a bastion of socialism where you are not allowed to own a car but have to pay each year to the state for the right to own the car… the problem of course is all that insane amount of money collected will never be used for anything other than to pay for pensions for former government employees :)

amanaplanacanal 2y ago
Don't know about your state in particular, but most places in the US vehicle and fuel taxes are not enough to pay for road maintenance, and it is being subsidized out of other taxes. My state realized a couple of decades ago that they were going to have the same kind of problem with their pension system and recreated it to be self-funding. They still have the old pensions to cover but at least they aren't continuing to dig themselves a deeper hole.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  The original commenter stated: "We need to start making consumers pay for their negative externalities." Alls I was trying to say is that consumers are already paying crazy money. 26 states have property taxes on cars! In VA even with all that PLUS a special tax for EVs PLUS most of the roads around the DC metro area are tollroads it is still not enough :) I was being facetious talking about pension funds - what I was basically trying to say that whatever money is collected isn't going to where it should be going - if there is a budget shortfall (and wouldn't you know - there always is...) money gets appropriated to other things...
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    Yeah my first paragraph was the important one. Building and maintaining roads is really expensive.
    - 2y ago