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If you’re tempted to think “this isn’t worth it, too hard to enforce without affecting something else”… read “The Anxious Generation” by Jonathan Haidt. There i

by xp84 2y ago

If you’re tempted to think “this isn’t worth it, too hard to enforce without affecting something else”… read “The Anxious Generation” by Jonathan Haidt. There is very real, irreparable harm being done to young people, and it merits trying to make it right, not just surrendering to it. Surely the problem of verifying a property of someone (the Boolean of “is over X age”) without sharing further details, is a surmountable problem given all the cryptographic technologies at our disposal. If a government wants to make this possible, given they know everyone’s birthdate, they could.

brookst 2y ago
The information theory problem is how to do so without creating a government ledger of every platform that every person uses, and a government kill switch to disable any platform the government doesn’t like.
BadHumans 2y ago
> Surely the problem of verifying a property of someone (the Boolean of “is over X age”) without sharing further details, is a surmountable problem given all the cryptographic technologies at our disposal. Only if preserving privacy is the goal and I'm sure we both know it isn't.
- owisd 2y ago
  I guess it will become self-fulfilling if everyone denies that there are privacy friendly options. Legislatures globally are starting to take this seriously so chances are it's happening one way or another.
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    "Everyone" isn't denying there are privacy friendly options. The government does not want to implement privacy friendly options.
isodev 2y ago
Indeed, the challenge is already resolved in Europe by eID/EIDAS in a privacy respecting way, so the technology exists and it's already proven on a large scale.
voltaireodactyl 2y ago
My issue with this idealistic and understandable perspective is that it completely ignores all historical precedent in the modern age. That is to say: if you think the government is going to use this as anything other than an opportunity to turn all those little dots on the GPS tracker into fully-authenticated names and profiles they can keep tabs on 24/7, I have a bridge to sell you. And if you think the third parties they contract out the tracking to won’t sell that info/access for profit, I have some magic beans as well. I support keeping kids protected. I’m just not naive enough to think the current governments of the world have any interest in achieving that goal while maintaining any semblance of privacy for their citizens.
ocschwar 2y ago
Frankly I want Australia to go ahead with this law so the rest of us can have a test case for it. If it works well we can copy it with tweaks. If not, then we know to seek other options.
- _hyn3 2y ago
  What is the acceptance criteria for this test case?
  - hbn 2y ago
    Government dissent is successfully abolished from social media (the real reason for wanting to abolish anonymity via gov't ID requirements)
    - Loughla 2y ago
      Bold claims need proof. Does Australia have a history of that?
      - logicchains 2y ago
        During COVID times the Australian government pressured all local media to censor criticism of the government's COVID measures. Regardless of how valid or invalid you consider the dissent, it was still dissent being suppressed.
        ruthmarx 2y ago
        Not sure why you are being downvoted. It's a fantastic example.
- egorfine 2y ago
  It will not work and this is exactly why it will be copied.
- casey2 2y ago
  What do you even mean by "work". You live in a fantasy land if you think the government will say we expect outcomes A, B and C from this law and will repeal or adjust it if all outcomes aren't met in 3 years. It's either a power grab or lobbying as others have suggested. SERIOUSLY! Is anyone claiming that childhood depression and suicide will go down to some range after this law is put in effect? Of course not. Will grades go up? "Government says I can't use social media, guess I'll study, go to sleep on time, and become a productive worker." - Average Australian kid? Will the number of sextortion caused suicides (in the <16 bracket) go back to 0 from 1 to the glory days of 2021 when social media didn't exist (nope, because he was 17 when he died and that was last year). Will the number of girls being sextorted for cash decrease? (reading this [1] you can just ask and they'll tell you, that's great, also it's the general sentiment between students that social media should be banned, another big win! Isn't it convenient when reality bends to ideology.) How exactly can you measure this? Is there a counter of the number of <16s who have seen porn/gore on social media and became too misogynistic or too autistic (or too much of a gay, trans, pedophile, brainrotted, degenerate, debauched, profligate, libertine, licentious, effeminate, wanton, vicious, perverse, recreant, lascivious, unrīht sodomite) for the government's taste? Anything more than a vague sense that cyberbulling will go down and irlbullying will go up a bit? probably Who knows, who cares! We allegedly have vague public sentiment! So grab away! It's blindingly obvious that this ban can't and won't change <16s habits past switching from their favorite app to whatever their friends are using now. [1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/australian-father-of-teen-sextortion-victim-backs-banning-young-children-from-social-media/ar-AA1uPDQr https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/australian-father-of-te...
kevinh 2y ago
The Anxious Generation is poorly researched pop science book that people believe to be true because it feels intuitively right to them.
- acron0 2y ago
  Is this just your opinion, or is there a scientific retort I can read?
  - skyyler 2y ago
    Is Nature "scientific" enough? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00902-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00902-2
- skyyler 2y ago
  On the surface it seems very similar to a book he previously worked on, The Coddling of the American Mind, which is also full of poorly researched pop science that confirms biases people already had. Kind of an "airport book"
  - jallbrit 2y ago
    Oh, a fellow If Books Could Kill podcast listener? It's unfortunate that truth is so hard to come by these days.
    - skyyler 2y ago
      Yes! That blend of information and humour is the only podcast format worth my time, to be honest. There's another podcast with Michael Hobbes called Maintenance Phase that I also enjoy when I have time to listen to it. Fen-phen in particular was something I hadn't really heard of before and reading about it after their episode on it was just fascinating.
- qball 2y ago
  Just like "the science" about brain development ages.
rpdillon 2y ago
I have tried to find good scientific evidence that shows that social media is a net negative for kids and or adults. I have been unable to do so. Reports that I read on conventional media sites often summarize government reports, but they do so incorrectly. And when I go and read the government reports, they present a much more balanced picture than the summaries would suggest. In particular, for marginalized teens, social media represents a unique avenue to connect with teens in similar situations, which provides a significant support network. I know it's popular now to say that social media is the root of all evil, but I would be very curious to see a scientific justification for banning it for kids under 16. Just a few years ago, this was a concern presented as 'screen time', but I had similar problems there. There's no real evidence to suggest that looking at a screen is the problem...the much more difficult and interesting problem is what you're doing when you're looking at the screen. There's a similar dynamic in play with social media, I think. For example, Hacker News is the only social media that I use, and I feel that I use it very differently than folks that use Instagram, for example. Can they be effectively conflated?
- lm28469 2y ago
  > I have tried to find good scientific evidence that shows that social media is a net negative for kids and or adults. I have been unable to do so. > For example, Hacker News is the only social media that I use Try spending an hour a day on tiktok (average tiktok user screen time) and 30 min a day on instagram (average ig user screen time) for a year and report back. This shit is crack cocaine for kids
- fsflover 2y ago
  > I have tried to find good scientific evidence that shows that social media is a net negative for kids and or adults. I have been unable to do so. Facebook knows Instagram is toxic for teen girls, company documents show (wsj.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28523688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28523688 Facebook proven to negatively impact mental health (tau.ac.il) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32938622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32938622 Testimony to House committee by former Facebook executive Tim Kendall (house.gov) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24579498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24579498
Funes- 2y ago
Parents should be more responsible. That's it. This measure is, potentially, deeply ingraining the (terrible) idea that the State is responsible instead, so when all these young kids have children, they, just as their parents, will lack the ability to take responsibility and make their children more responsible by proxy, and so on, and so forth. It's a never ending cycle that is perpetuated by not tackling the problem at its real source. And let's not forget how measures taken in the name of security are oftentimes actually made to deprive us of our privacy.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- xyzzy123 2y ago
  The difficulty is co-ordination. My job as a "responsible parent" is much more difficult if I have to fight prevailing social norms and my kids perceive they are being excluded from conversations and arbitrarily cut off from their peers. The social media ban is similar to the logic behind gaming limits in China. The idea is that while the controls themselves are easily circumvented, it gives everyone an excuse to do the right thing. Parents don't have infinite "control tokens". I only have time & energy to put my foot down about a limited number of things. It is much easier to establish conventions around responsible behaviour if the whole community is behind it. I am OK with this ban for the same reason I'm OK with tobacco sellers being not allowed to sell to under 18s.
  - titannet 2y ago
    This, I would go so far as keeping kids from social media is in conflict with (arguably) one of the most important jobs parents have which is getting kids into social interactions. (E.g. by teaching them good manners so others will play with them)
  - 71bw 2y ago
    >I am OK with this ban for the same reason I'm OK with tobacco sellers being not allowed to sell to under 18s. And yet almost anywhere in Europe this ban is completely ineffective as the kids who start smoking get their hands on the cigarettes regardless. It only is a VERY minor inconvenience until they grow 18.
lopkeny12ko 2y ago
"Ban social media for everyone because it might be bad for some kids" is as fragile as an argument as "ban guns for everyone because some bad guy might get his hands on one."
- Supernaut 2y ago
  Well, "ban guns for everyone because some bad guy might get his hands on one" has always been the law in my country, and it has worked out extremely well. There has never been a mass shooting here, ever.
- Vegenoid 2y ago
  Most countries ban guns for everyone, with that being the primary reason. It is not a fragile argument, it is simply a different weighting of values. When I say “ban”, I mean “heavily restrict and track”, which is how I gather we are using the term “ban” in this context as well.
watwut 2y ago
That book is nice example of a case "if you have a hammer you want to push, everything looks like a nail".
crazygringo 2y ago
> is a surmountable problem given all the cryptographic technologies at our disposal I'm genuinely curious, is it? I don't know enough to be sure one way or the other, how you'd do it with some kind of private/public key thing or whatever. Can anyone here provide a quick example? And I'm assuming it would involve some kind of code generated on the spot just for you, so somebody couldn't just post a code on the internet for all teens to use.
whimsicalism 2y ago
i would prefer if we didn’t decide policy based on pop-sci books.
iamthemonster 2y ago
Yeah I don't understand the particular revulsion to showing ID here. The concept of showing your ID to get access to something is very well embedded across alcohol, driving, cigarettes, your myGov account, Medicare, air travel, all sorts.

by xp84 2y ago

brookst 2y ago

The information theory problem is how to do so without creating a government ledger of every platform that every person uses, and a government kill switch to disable any platform the government doesn’t like.

BadHumans 2y ago

> Surely the problem of verifying a property of someone (the Boolean of “is over X age”) without sharing further details, is a surmountable problem given all the cryptographic technologies at our disposal. Only if preserving privacy is the goal and I'm sure we both know it isn't.

owisd 2y ago
I guess it will become self-fulfilling if everyone denies that there are privacy friendly options. Legislatures globally are starting to take this seriously so chances are it's happening one way or another.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  "Everyone" isn't denying there are privacy friendly options. The government does not want to implement privacy friendly options.

isodev 2y ago

Indeed, the challenge is already resolved in Europe by eID/EIDAS in a privacy respecting way, so the technology exists and it's already proven on a large scale.

voltaireodactyl 2y ago

My issue with this idealistic and understandable perspective is that it completely ignores all historical precedent in the modern age. That is to say: if you think the government is going to use this as anything other than an opportunity to turn all those little dots on the GPS tracker into fully-authenticated names and profiles they can keep tabs on 24/7, I have a bridge to sell you. And if you think the third parties they contract out the tracking to won’t sell that info/access for profit, I have some magic beans as well. I support keeping kids protected. I’m just not naive enough to think the current governments of the world have any interest in achieving that goal while maintaining any semblance of privacy for their citizens.

ocschwar 2y ago

Frankly I want Australia to go ahead with this law so the rest of us can have a test case for it. If it works well we can copy it with tweaks. If not, then we know to seek other options.

_hyn3 2y ago
What is the acceptance criteria for this test case?
- hbn 2y ago
  Government dissent is successfully abolished from social media (the real reason for wanting to abolish anonymity via gov't ID requirements)
  - Loughla 2y ago
    Bold claims need proof. Does Australia have a history of that?
    - logicchains 2y ago
      During COVID times the Australian government pressured all local media to censor criticism of the government's COVID measures. Regardless of how valid or invalid you consider the dissent, it was still dissent being suppressed.
      - ruthmarx 2y ago
        Not sure why you are being downvoted. It's a fantastic example.
egorfine 2y ago
It will not work and this is exactly why it will be copied.
casey2 2y ago
What do you even mean by "work". You live in a fantasy land if you think the government will say we expect outcomes A, B and C from this law and will repeal or adjust it if all outcomes aren't met in 3 years. It's either a power grab or lobbying as others have suggested. SERIOUSLY! Is anyone claiming that childhood depression and suicide will go down to some range after this law is put in effect? Of course not. Will grades go up? "Government says I can't use social media, guess I'll study, go to sleep on time, and become a productive worker." - Average Australian kid? Will the number of sextortion caused suicides (in the <16 bracket) go back to 0 from 1 to the glory days of 2021 when social media didn't exist (nope, because he was 17 when he died and that was last year). Will the number of girls being sextorted for cash decrease? (reading this [1] you can just ask and they'll tell you, that's great, also it's the general sentiment between students that social media should be banned, another big win! Isn't it convenient when reality bends to ideology.) How exactly can you measure this? Is there a counter of the number of <16s who have seen porn/gore on social media and became too misogynistic or too autistic (or too much of a gay, trans, pedophile, brainrotted, degenerate, debauched, profligate, libertine, licentious, effeminate, wanton, vicious, perverse, recreant, lascivious, unrīht sodomite) for the government's taste? Anything more than a vague sense that cyberbulling will go down and irlbullying will go up a bit? probably Who knows, who cares! We allegedly have vague public sentiment! So grab away! It's blindingly obvious that this ban can't and won't change <16s habits past switching from their favorite app to whatever their friends are using now. [1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/australian-father-of-teen-sextortion-victim-backs-banning-young-children-from-social-media/ar-AA1uPDQr https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/australian-father-of-te...

kevinh 2y ago

The Anxious Generation is poorly researched pop science book that people believe to be true because it feels intuitively right to them.

acron0 2y ago
Is this just your opinion, or is there a scientific retort I can read?
- skyyler 2y ago
  Is Nature "scientific" enough? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00902-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00902-2
skyyler 2y ago
On the surface it seems very similar to a book he previously worked on, The Coddling of the American Mind, which is also full of poorly researched pop science that confirms biases people already had. Kind of an "airport book"
- jallbrit 2y ago
  Oh, a fellow If Books Could Kill podcast listener? It's unfortunate that truth is so hard to come by these days.
  - skyyler 2y ago
    Yes! That blend of information and humour is the only podcast format worth my time, to be honest. There's another podcast with Michael Hobbes called Maintenance Phase that I also enjoy when I have time to listen to it. Fen-phen in particular was something I hadn't really heard of before and reading about it after their episode on it was just fascinating.
qball 2y ago
Just like "the science" about brain development ages.

rpdillon 2y ago

I have tried to find good scientific evidence that shows that social media is a net negative for kids and or adults. I have been unable to do so. Reports that I read on conventional media sites often summarize government reports, but they do so incorrectly. And when I go and read the government reports, they present a much more balanced picture than the summaries would suggest. In particular, for marginalized teens, social media represents a unique avenue to connect with teens in similar situations, which provides a significant support network. I know it's popular now to say that social media is the root of all evil, but I would be very curious to see a scientific justification for banning it for kids under 16. Just a few years ago, this was a concern presented as 'screen time', but I had similar problems there. There's no real evidence to suggest that looking at a screen is the problem...the much more difficult and interesting problem is what you're doing when you're looking at the screen. There's a similar dynamic in play with social media, I think. For example, Hacker News is the only social media that I use, and I feel that I use it very differently than folks that use Instagram, for example. Can they be effectively conflated?

lm28469 2y ago
> I have tried to find good scientific evidence that shows that social media is a net negative for kids and or adults. I have been unable to do so. > For example, Hacker News is the only social media that I use Try spending an hour a day on tiktok (average tiktok user screen time) and 30 min a day on instagram (average ig user screen time) for a year and report back. This shit is crack cocaine for kids
fsflover 2y ago
> I have tried to find good scientific evidence that shows that social media is a net negative for kids and or adults. I have been unable to do so. Facebook knows Instagram is toxic for teen girls, company documents show (wsj.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28523688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28523688 Facebook proven to negatively impact mental health (tau.ac.il) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32938622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32938622 Testimony to House committee by former Facebook executive Tim Kendall (house.gov) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24579498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24579498

Funes- 2y ago

Parents should be more responsible. That's it. This measure is, potentially, deeply ingraining the (terrible) idea that the State is responsible instead, so when all these young kids have children, they, just as their parents, will lack the ability to take responsibility and make their children more responsible by proxy, and so on, and so forth. It's a never ending cycle that is perpetuated by not tackling the problem at its real source. And let's not forget how measures taken in the name of security are oftentimes actually made to deprive us of our privacy.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
xyzzy123 2y ago
The difficulty is co-ordination. My job as a "responsible parent" is much more difficult if I have to fight prevailing social norms and my kids perceive they are being excluded from conversations and arbitrarily cut off from their peers. The social media ban is similar to the logic behind gaming limits in China. The idea is that while the controls themselves are easily circumvented, it gives everyone an excuse to do the right thing. Parents don't have infinite "control tokens". I only have time & energy to put my foot down about a limited number of things. It is much easier to establish conventions around responsible behaviour if the whole community is behind it. I am OK with this ban for the same reason I'm OK with tobacco sellers being not allowed to sell to under 18s.
- titannet 2y ago
  This, I would go so far as keeping kids from social media is in conflict with (arguably) one of the most important jobs parents have which is getting kids into social interactions. (E.g. by teaching them good manners so others will play with them)
- 71bw 2y ago
  >I am OK with this ban for the same reason I'm OK with tobacco sellers being not allowed to sell to under 18s. And yet almost anywhere in Europe this ban is completely ineffective as the kids who start smoking get their hands on the cigarettes regardless. It only is a VERY minor inconvenience until they grow 18.

lopkeny12ko 2y ago

"Ban social media for everyone because it might be bad for some kids" is as fragile as an argument as "ban guns for everyone because some bad guy might get his hands on one."

Supernaut 2y ago
Well, "ban guns for everyone because some bad guy might get his hands on one" has always been the law in my country, and it has worked out extremely well. There has never been a mass shooting here, ever.
Vegenoid 2y ago
Most countries ban guns for everyone, with that being the primary reason. It is not a fragile argument, it is simply a different weighting of values. When I say “ban”, I mean “heavily restrict and track”, which is how I gather we are using the term “ban” in this context as well.

watwut 2y ago

That book is nice example of a case "if you have a hammer you want to push, everything looks like a nail".

crazygringo 2y ago

> is a surmountable problem given all the cryptographic technologies at our disposal I'm genuinely curious, is it? I don't know enough to be sure one way or the other, how you'd do it with some kind of private/public key thing or whatever. Can anyone here provide a quick example? And I'm assuming it would involve some kind of code generated on the spot just for you, so somebody couldn't just post a code on the internet for all teens to use.

whimsicalism 2y ago

i would prefer if we didn’t decide policy based on pop-sci books.

iamthemonster 2y ago

Yeah I don't understand the particular revulsion to showing ID here. The concept of showing your ID to get access to something is very well embedded across alcohol, driving, cigarettes, your myGov account, Medicare, air travel, all sorts.