5 ms·

Are these "recalls" just simple over the air software updates? Just because car people are not used to this doesn't make it necessarily bad. Obviously no bugs a

by pbreit 2y ago

Are these "recalls" just simple over the air software updates? Just because car people are not used to this doesn't make it necessarily bad. Obviously no bugs are better than some bugs. But people here tend to know how software development works.

Arcuru 2y ago
From the first paragraph of TFA: > The latest recall—the wedge wagon’s sixth this year—requires shop time, not an over-the-air (OTA) update.
- WithinReason 2y ago
  This implies some of the recalls were just OTAs
- liontwist 2y ago
  That doesn’t answer which one they are considering to determine this ranking,
- gibolt 2y ago
  That's the point... It is the only one and affects less than 3000 vehicles. A prior physical recall affected a few hundred. For most automakers, a recall involves hundreds of thousands to millions and is almost never an OTA software update.
  - nahwut 2y ago
    [dead]
  - BeefWellington 2y ago
    It is not the only one. While it's true this affects roughly 1/5 to 1/3 of all Cybertrucks sold so far this year (depending on which random sales numbers online you believe), some of the others have affected every Cybertruck sold, such as the wiper motor burning out or the pieces of bed trim falling off while driving. I cannot find any evidence that previous physical recalls this year only affected a few hundred units. Two are 2000+ units and the others seem to be however many had sold by the date of the recall (10k+ in both instances).
- pbreit 2y ago
  So...one? This article is a hack job. I didn't see any positive commentary. Wired is cooked.
  - forgotoldacc 2y ago
    Is it their job to write positive commentary about Tesla? Because I'm not sure it is. I'd argue the opposite, since that'd just be an advertisement.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
screye 2y ago
Just because we tolerate it doesn't mean others should too. Legacy industries view software projects as a 1-and-done deal. The "we'll fix it live" approach in tech is a short-coming of our discipline. We can ignore it when failure means a mild inconvenience. But, hard engineering isn't as forgiving. Even if the fix is 'just' a software update, the bug can put lives at risk. [1] Each industry and its regulators come with certain norms. Cars are expected to be delivered as 'complete' products. If Tesla can't abide by that expectation, then that's their problem. Don't drag the entire software industry into this. [1] https://www.cars.com/research/tesla-cybertruck/recalls/ https://www.cars.com/research/tesla-cybertruck/recalls/
qwerpy 2y ago
Mine has two physical recalls active, but they’re not serious so I haven’t scheduled any maintenance yet. Unlike my Honda civic a couple of decades ago which had an airbag that was killing people. That one I got taken care of quickly.
stackghost 2y ago
>But people here tend to know how software development works. Yes and the way software development tends to work is absolutely unacceptable in safety-critical systems in a 7000 lb vehicle.
Veserv 2y ago
This always comes up. A “recall” is not a description of the remediation, it is a description of the problem. A recall is a public dangerous defect notice. The dangerous product version can no longer be deployed, existing systems suffering from the dangerous defect are identified, and then the version with those dangerous defects is removed from the market with all due speed by either refunding, replacing, or remediating at the manufacturer’s expense. The defective version is thus no longer present, i.e “recalled”. The term has a precise meaning as I laid out. Unfortunately, it has been so thoroughly intentionally poisoned by bad actors in recent years that the term should be retired. We should use the descriptive term: “Public Dangerous Defect Notice” to avoid such bad faith misrepresentation going forward.
- tareqak 2y ago
  To your point, both things can be true. The CyberTruck can have recalls worse than 91% of all 2024 cars, but many of its recalls can be cheap to for Tesla to fix. I think that is where the two clusters of people that I see commenting here are converging / possibly arguing past each other. One popular form of headline that comes to my mind from business new channels of which I remember no specific instance basically goes like this: “Car manufacturer recalls X many cars costing over them Y dollars because of some fault”. X is usually in the tens of thousands or more and Y is usually in the millions of dollars (now maybe tens of millions of dollars).
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - egeozcan 2y ago
    On https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls#recalls-7746 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls#recalls-7746 it says: > A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA. > Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle. So the person you're replying to seems to be correct, or is there another source that shares your claim that "the focus is, and always has been, on the physically give your car back to manufacturer part"?
BeefWellington 2y ago
It's not the only one. There's been been a number of physical recalls for the Cybertruck, including: - Accelerator pedal sticking[1] - Trunk bed trim detaching[2] - Front windshield wiper failures[3] - This latest drive problem[4] From what I could find via the NHTSA there's only been six this year for Cybertrucks, so it seems like the majority are physical problems. Edit: Forgot HN's formatting for lists. [1]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V276000 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V276000 [2]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V457000 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V457000 [3]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V456000 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V456000 [4]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V832000 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V832000
pdpi 2y ago
> Just because car people are not used to this doesn't make it necessarily bad. Of course it's bad. If this were a purely software discussion, would anybody be saying "It's OK they have a bazillion zero-days every year because they're quick to fix them when they learn about them"? Also, remember that the flipside is also true: with aggressive OTA updates, they have the ability to create new issues that weren't there to begin with. I wouldn't trust somebody with that bad a QA track record to not introduce new issues.
__m 2y ago
Except that this is car development with clear guidelines and if you don't adhere to them you have to live with your bugs being labeled as recalls. People should be made aware of when players don't adhere to industry standards with safety implications and you don't get that by just sweeping them under the carpet as "bugs".
hot_gril 2y ago
Recall means safety issue, which is necessarily bad. It's nice that they can fix these things over the air, but there was still some elevated risk before they caught it. Despite this, seems like at least the regular Teslas are among the safest vehicles on the road all things considered.

by pbreit 2y ago

Arcuru 2y ago

From the first paragraph of TFA: > The latest recall—the wedge wagon’s sixth this year—requires shop time, not an over-the-air (OTA) update.

WithinReason 2y ago
This implies some of the recalls were just OTAs
liontwist 2y ago
That doesn’t answer which one they are considering to determine this ranking,
gibolt 2y ago
That's the point... It is the only one and affects less than 3000 vehicles. A prior physical recall affected a few hundred. For most automakers, a recall involves hundreds of thousands to millions and is almost never an OTA software update.
- nahwut 2y ago
  [dead]
- BeefWellington 2y ago
  It is not the only one. While it's true this affects roughly 1/5 to 1/3 of all Cybertrucks sold so far this year (depending on which random sales numbers online you believe), some of the others have affected every Cybertruck sold, such as the wiper motor burning out or the pieces of bed trim falling off while driving. I cannot find any evidence that previous physical recalls this year only affected a few hundred units. Two are 2000+ units and the others seem to be however many had sold by the date of the recall (10k+ in both instances).
pbreit 2y ago
So...one? This article is a hack job. I didn't see any positive commentary. Wired is cooked.
- forgotoldacc 2y ago
  Is it their job to write positive commentary about Tesla? Because I'm not sure it is. I'd argue the opposite, since that'd just be an advertisement.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

screye 2y ago

Just because we tolerate it doesn't mean others should too. Legacy industries view software projects as a 1-and-done deal. The "we'll fix it live" approach in tech is a short-coming of our discipline. We can ignore it when failure means a mild inconvenience. But, hard engineering isn't as forgiving. Even if the fix is 'just' a software update, the bug can put lives at risk. [1] Each industry and its regulators come with certain norms. Cars are expected to be delivered as 'complete' products. If Tesla can't abide by that expectation, then that's their problem. Don't drag the entire software industry into this. [1] https://www.cars.com/research/tesla-cybertruck/recalls/ https://www.cars.com/research/tesla-cybertruck/recalls/

qwerpy 2y ago

Mine has two physical recalls active, but they’re not serious so I haven’t scheduled any maintenance yet. Unlike my Honda civic a couple of decades ago which had an airbag that was killing people. That one I got taken care of quickly.

stackghost 2y ago

>But people here tend to know how software development works. Yes and the way software development tends to work is absolutely unacceptable in safety-critical systems in a 7000 lb vehicle.

Veserv 2y ago

This always comes up. A “recall” is not a description of the remediation, it is a description of the problem. A recall is a public dangerous defect notice. The dangerous product version can no longer be deployed, existing systems suffering from the dangerous defect are identified, and then the version with those dangerous defects is removed from the market with all due speed by either refunding, replacing, or remediating at the manufacturer’s expense. The defective version is thus no longer present, i.e “recalled”. The term has a precise meaning as I laid out. Unfortunately, it has been so thoroughly intentionally poisoned by bad actors in recent years that the term should be retired. We should use the descriptive term: “Public Dangerous Defect Notice” to avoid such bad faith misrepresentation going forward.

tareqak 2y ago
To your point, both things can be true. The CyberTruck can have recalls worse than 91% of all 2024 cars, but many of its recalls can be cheap to for Tesla to fix. I think that is where the two clusters of people that I see commenting here are converging / possibly arguing past each other. One popular form of headline that comes to my mind from business new channels of which I remember no specific instance basically goes like this: “Car manufacturer recalls X many cars costing over them Y dollars because of some fault”. X is usually in the tens of thousands or more and Y is usually in the millions of dollars (now maybe tens of millions of dollars).
TeMPOraL 2y ago
[flagged]
- egeozcan 2y ago
  On https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls#recalls-7746 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls#recalls-7746 it says: > A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA. > Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle. So the person you're replying to seems to be correct, or is there another source that shares your claim that "the focus is, and always has been, on the physically give your car back to manufacturer part"?

BeefWellington 2y ago

It's not the only one. There's been been a number of physical recalls for the Cybertruck, including: - Accelerator pedal sticking[1] - Trunk bed trim detaching[2] - Front windshield wiper failures[3] - This latest drive problem[4] From what I could find via the NHTSA there's only been six this year for Cybertrucks, so it seems like the majority are physical problems. Edit: Forgot HN's formatting for lists. [1]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V276000 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V276000 [2]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V457000 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V457000 [3]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V456000 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V456000 [4]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V832000 https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=24V832000

pdpi 2y ago

> Just because car people are not used to this doesn't make it necessarily bad. Of course it's bad. If this were a purely software discussion, would anybody be saying "It's OK they have a bazillion zero-days every year because they're quick to fix them when they learn about them"? Also, remember that the flipside is also true: with aggressive OTA updates, they have the ability to create new issues that weren't there to begin with. I wouldn't trust somebody with that bad a QA track record to not introduce new issues.

__m 2y ago

Except that this is car development with clear guidelines and if you don't adhere to them you have to live with your bugs being labeled as recalls. People should be made aware of when players don't adhere to industry standards with safety implications and you don't get that by just sweeping them under the carpet as "bugs".

hot_gril 2y ago

Recall means safety issue, which is necessarily bad. It's nice that they can fix these things over the air, but there was still some elevated risk before they caught it. Despite this, seems like at least the regular Teslas are among the safest vehicles on the road all things considered.