6 ms·

One thing I’ve been curious about for a long time is if the use of prayer rugs in the Orthodox Churches predates Islam or was picked up by Christians from their

One thing I’ve been curious about for a long time is if the use of prayer rugs in the Orthodox Churches predates Islam or was picked up by Christians from their Muslim neighbors.

chamanbuga 2y ago
I didn't know Orthodox Christians prostrated in their prayer much less use prayer rugs. Curious where this practice remains today.
- handfuloflight 2y ago
  They would as per Matthew 26:39. > "Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’"
- sramsay 2y ago
  Prostrations are part of every Orthodox tradition, to my knowledge. You will even see people making prostrations publicly in church especially during Great Lent, but you will generally not see people doing it at a Sunday liturgy since (in most traditions) prostrations are forbidden on Sundays.
  - michaelsbradley 2y ago
    They're part of the Western (Catholic) tradition as well, but less frequently encountered: during the Litany of the Saints that precedes ordination to the priesthood those to be ordained are prostrate; the ministers at the start of the Good Friday liturgy lie prostrate before the altar; and a few other special contexts.
  - asadalt 2y ago
    there is something about prostrations that’s interesting but i can’t tell what exactly scientifically. But it brings me relief everytime I do it in namaz. I understand that the act of submission is relieving (things will be ok/there is someone looking out for me) but also physically (hard to explain) no wonder it’s the meat of the entire prayer. Taking a prayer break from my messy code problems really resets my brain strain very quickly.
  - raptorraver 2y ago
    There are variances in the traditions also here. In Russian tradition all the people in the Church do prostration during the eucharist prayers where wine and old are turned into Communion, and also before they partake the Communion. But in Greek tradition they don't do any prostrations during the liturgy. Prostrations aren't forbidden on Sundays but if you partake Eucharist you are not allowed to do prostration during that day.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Every Orthodox service I've been to we stood the entire time, though I never went on special holidays. My inner ex-Catholic wondered is it really church if I don't kneel and stand, kneel and stand, kneel and stand all through the service? My Ukrainian ex had a worship space in a corner. It didn't have any rugs but had hauntingly beautiful hand painted icons. Maybe rugs are more of a thing in the old countries?
  - jacobolus 2y ago
    Churches probably have some kind of theological explanation, but alternately kneeling, sitting, and standing is much better physiologically. Having a large and diverse group of people all stay in the same position for an extended period is very rough on their bodies, and some more than others. Periodically switching prevents injuries caused by maintaining too much static load for too long in any one place. Probably also helps keep everyone awake. For the same reasons it's a good idea to occasionally switch positions while working.
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      There are theological explanations but it is also explicitly taught that physical movement and awareness of your body is an important part of prayer, similar to how bells and incense ask you to include those senses. Also there isn't a rule against sitting, orthodox churches have seats for people who need or want them and it's absolutely normal to see people sit for some or all of services. It is discouraged to notice who or wonder why.
    - ashoeafoot 2y ago
      it is all things but diverse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_Middle_East https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_Middle_...
      - jacobolus 2y ago
        Any typical religious service includes a diverse group of people, physiologically: men and women, people of all ages, people of various body shapes and levels of fitness, etc., for some of whom it's especially bad to sit in one position for an extended time.
- raptorraver 2y ago
  Especially monks and nuns do prostrations as part of their prayer rule. Some do hunderds, some do even thousands prostrations during their prayers. We use prayer rope when recitating Jesus Prayer[1]. Prayer rope helps count the prayers but also it gives your hands something to do while praying, so it's easier to focus. I usually have one in my pocket and I roll it in my hands secretly while in meetings or sometimes even during typing code. I don't really pray then but it reminds me of the spiritual reality and that my boring Teams-meetings and stupid Jira-tickets aren't the purpose of my life ;) 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    The widespread use of the prayer rope with jesus prayer in orthodoxy is very recent, like second half of 20th century. Both things are ancient but the rope was more associated with monastics and some specific balkan regions where they were popular. The jesus prayer has been common but the modern hesychastic application of it was basically practiced only by monks until JD salinger made the way of the pilgrim popular. You hear about this practice a lot on the internet and it is very familiar to english-speaking converts but this practice is not typical among for example greeks christians in greece, or even most russians I don't think but I'm less clear on that.
pvg 2y ago
That whole bundle of traditions - prayer times, prayer directions, prayer accessories, etc predates Islam if for no other reason than that Islam is comparatively new. But the cross-pollination could have easily happened more than once and in both directions.
- handfuloflight 2y ago
  In fact the Muslims initially prayed towards Jerusalem (as did the Jews then and today) until revelation specifically turned them towards Mecca: > "So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram (the Sacred Mosque in Mecca). And wherever you are, turn your faces toward it..." Quran 2:144
- ralmidani 2y ago
  Even Muslims do not claim their religion is completely novel. The rituals may differ, but the creed preached by Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) is the same preached by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, John, Jesus, and countless other prophets (peace be upon them all): worship The One True God (Allah, Yahweh) with no partners. As far as prayer rugs and other accessories, those are not actually part of our rituals as Muslims. Some people use them for practical purposes (prayer rugs help you avoid prostrating on dirt, asphalt, a potentially unclean carpet, etc. and prayer beads make it easier to keep count), while some others may have cultural reasons, and some just want to enhance their spiritual experience (e.g. incense and perfume).
  - pushupentry1219 2y ago
    Muslims say that Islam _was_ the religion of all the prophets you've mentioned. Because of this they also believe that Islam is the _oldest_ religion, since Adam, the first man, followed Islam.
    - ralmidani 2y ago
      “Islam” as a named religion with its own prescribed rituals and laws is specific to the message preached in Arabia in the 7th century. “Muslim” is a more transcendent term that encompasses all the prophets mentioned in the Quran, as well as those not mentioned. Their creed and state of mind (absolute submission to God’s will) is the same, but they did not follow a religion called “Islam”. Earlier prophets and their followers prayed, fasted, and gave charity. Some even made the pilgrimage to Makkah. However, certain details of these rituals may have differed between them and today’s Islam, and between one another.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nashashmi 2y ago
I believe the prayer rug comes from the Ottomans (uncited) who added prestige to the artifacts. After the conquest of Constantinople, the Ottomons adopted the Roman (Byzantine) Orthodox Church's symbol () to represent Islam (Crescent and Star). They adopted the church dome and bell tower for architecture of the mosque called dome and minaret. And now it seems they also adopted the prayer rug. (Fun anecdote: I traveled to Venice and the tour guide said the architecture of the St. Marks Basilica is different from the Catholic Churches of the rest of Italy as it resembles Islamic Architecture influences. Ha! It resembles Byzantine or Constantinople influences, not Islamic at all but quite similar.)

One thing I’ve been curious about for a long time is if the use of prayer rugs in the Orthodox Churches predates Islam or was picked up by Christians from their Muslim neighbors.

chamanbuga 2y ago

I didn't know Orthodox Christians prostrated in their prayer much less use prayer rugs. Curious where this practice remains today.

handfuloflight 2y ago
They would as per Matthew 26:39. > "Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’"
sramsay 2y ago
Prostrations are part of every Orthodox tradition, to my knowledge. You will even see people making prostrations publicly in church especially during Great Lent, but you will generally not see people doing it at a Sunday liturgy since (in most traditions) prostrations are forbidden on Sundays.
- michaelsbradley 2y ago
  They're part of the Western (Catholic) tradition as well, but less frequently encountered: during the Litany of the Saints that precedes ordination to the priesthood those to be ordained are prostrate; the ministers at the start of the Good Friday liturgy lie prostrate before the altar; and a few other special contexts.
- asadalt 2y ago
  there is something about prostrations that’s interesting but i can’t tell what exactly scientifically. But it brings me relief everytime I do it in namaz. I understand that the act of submission is relieving (things will be ok/there is someone looking out for me) but also physically (hard to explain) no wonder it’s the meat of the entire prayer. Taking a prayer break from my messy code problems really resets my brain strain very quickly.
- raptorraver 2y ago
  There are variances in the traditions also here. In Russian tradition all the people in the Church do prostration during the eucharist prayers where wine and old are turned into Communion, and also before they partake the Communion. But in Greek tradition they don't do any prostrations during the liturgy. Prostrations aren't forbidden on Sundays but if you partake Eucharist you are not allowed to do prostration during that day.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Every Orthodox service I've been to we stood the entire time, though I never went on special holidays. My inner ex-Catholic wondered is it really church if I don't kneel and stand, kneel and stand, kneel and stand all through the service? My Ukrainian ex had a worship space in a corner. It didn't have any rugs but had hauntingly beautiful hand painted icons. Maybe rugs are more of a thing in the old countries?
- jacobolus 2y ago
  Churches probably have some kind of theological explanation, but alternately kneeling, sitting, and standing is much better physiologically. Having a large and diverse group of people all stay in the same position for an extended period is very rough on their bodies, and some more than others. Periodically switching prevents injuries caused by maintaining too much static load for too long in any one place. Probably also helps keep everyone awake. For the same reasons it's a good idea to occasionally switch positions while working.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    There are theological explanations but it is also explicitly taught that physical movement and awareness of your body is an important part of prayer, similar to how bells and incense ask you to include those senses. Also there isn't a rule against sitting, orthodox churches have seats for people who need or want them and it's absolutely normal to see people sit for some or all of services. It is discouraged to notice who or wonder why.
  - ashoeafoot 2y ago
    it is all things but diverse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_Middle_East https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_Middle_...
    - jacobolus 2y ago
      Any typical religious service includes a diverse group of people, physiologically: men and women, people of all ages, people of various body shapes and levels of fitness, etc., for some of whom it's especially bad to sit in one position for an extended time.
raptorraver 2y ago
Especially monks and nuns do prostrations as part of their prayer rule. Some do hunderds, some do even thousands prostrations during their prayers. We use prayer rope when recitating Jesus Prayer[1]. Prayer rope helps count the prayers but also it gives your hands something to do while praying, so it's easier to focus. I usually have one in my pocket and I roll it in my hands secretly while in meetings or sometimes even during typing code. I don't really pray then but it reminds me of the spiritual reality and that my boring Teams-meetings and stupid Jira-tickets aren't the purpose of my life ;) 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  The widespread use of the prayer rope with jesus prayer in orthodoxy is very recent, like second half of 20th century. Both things are ancient but the rope was more associated with monastics and some specific balkan regions where they were popular. The jesus prayer has been common but the modern hesychastic application of it was basically practiced only by monks until JD salinger made the way of the pilgrim popular. You hear about this practice a lot on the internet and it is very familiar to english-speaking converts but this practice is not typical among for example greeks christians in greece, or even most russians I don't think but I'm less clear on that.

pvg 2y ago

That whole bundle of traditions - prayer times, prayer directions, prayer accessories, etc predates Islam if for no other reason than that Islam is comparatively new. But the cross-pollination could have easily happened more than once and in both directions.

handfuloflight 2y ago
In fact the Muslims initially prayed towards Jerusalem (as did the Jews then and today) until revelation specifically turned them towards Mecca: > "So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram (the Sacred Mosque in Mecca). And wherever you are, turn your faces toward it..." Quran 2:144
ralmidani 2y ago
Even Muslims do not claim their religion is completely novel. The rituals may differ, but the creed preached by Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) is the same preached by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, John, Jesus, and countless other prophets (peace be upon them all): worship The One True God (Allah, Yahweh) with no partners. As far as prayer rugs and other accessories, those are not actually part of our rituals as Muslims. Some people use them for practical purposes (prayer rugs help you avoid prostrating on dirt, asphalt, a potentially unclean carpet, etc. and prayer beads make it easier to keep count), while some others may have cultural reasons, and some just want to enhance their spiritual experience (e.g. incense and perfume).
- pushupentry1219 2y ago
  Muslims say that Islam _was_ the religion of all the prophets you've mentioned. Because of this they also believe that Islam is the _oldest_ religion, since Adam, the first man, followed Islam.
  - ralmidani 2y ago
    “Islam” as a named religion with its own prescribed rituals and laws is specific to the message preached in Arabia in the 7th century. “Muslim” is a more transcendent term that encompasses all the prophets mentioned in the Quran, as well as those not mentioned. Their creed and state of mind (absolute submission to God’s will) is the same, but they did not follow a religion called “Islam”. Earlier prophets and their followers prayed, fasted, and gave charity. Some even made the pilgrimage to Makkah. However, certain details of these rituals may have differed between them and today’s Islam, and between one another.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nashashmi 2y ago

I believe the prayer rug comes from the Ottomans (uncited) who added prestige to the artifacts. After the conquest of Constantinople, the Ottomons adopted the Roman (Byzantine) Orthodox Church's symbol () to represent Islam (Crescent and Star). They adopted the church dome and bell tower for architecture of the mosque called dome and minaret. And now it seems they also adopted the prayer rug. (Fun anecdote: I traveled to Venice and the tour guide said the architecture of the St. Marks Basilica is different from the Catholic Churches of the rest of Italy as it resembles Islamic Architecture influences. Ha! It resembles Byzantine or Constantinople influences, not Islamic at all but quite similar.)