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For this to work they must have already done facial recognition on everyone’s ID photos, so I fail to see what opting out even does for me from a privacy perspe

For this to work they must have already done facial recognition on everyone’s ID photos, so I fail to see what opting out even does for me from a privacy perspective. Seems like shutting the barn door after the horse is already out.

bjtitus 2y ago
Yeah, it seems pretty useless. Nothing stops them from simply doing this on publicly available data online as well. We’ve known for over a decade that DHS, FBI, CBP, and local police buy location data. https://www.propublica.org/article/no-warrant-no-problem-how-the-government-can-still-get-your-digital-data https://www.propublica.org/article/no-warrant-no-problem-how...
mingus88 2y ago
Indeed, not to mention the availability of public social media photos. To think that every intelligence agency on earth hasn’t already trained FR across their databases of IDs and material voluntarily uploaded by themselves and their family/friends… One reason I left Facebook early on was that I didn’t like getting tagged in photos the next morning after everyone would get home from parties. Too bad for me, as long as you have a friend who don’t value your privacy, there is nothing you can do about it. Add to this any public event, where they are well within their rights to take your picture and match it against known threat actors and the only way to not play this game is to be a hermit
- y-c-o-m-b 2y ago
  > One reason I left Facebook early on was that I didn’t like getting tagged in photos the next morning after everyone would get home from parties. Too bad for me, as long as you have a friend who don’t value your privacy, there is nothing you can do about it. I hated this too, but there was an option to disable it. I know because I used it for that very reason. I don't know if they removed it; I left Facebook probably around a decade ago and it was there when I left.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Disabling never really disables. It just appears that way. Just as nothing is ever really deleted on those platforms.
joezydeco 2y ago
The current program in limited beta test is called "TSA PreCheck Touchless". So you need to be in TSA PreCheck, and you gave them your photo and fingerprints when you voluntarily enrolled in that program. They are probably using your passport biometrics if those are available as well. https://www.tsa.gov/biometrics-technology/evaluating-facial-identification-technology https://www.tsa.gov/biometrics-technology/evaluating-facial-...
sneak 2y ago
Resolution, recency, additional training data to up accuracy.
rgrieselhuber 2y ago
It’s a question of normalization, not data.
cryptonector 2y ago
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42230738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42230738 2. If people stand up for decency, they might get it.
ibejoeb 2y ago
Sure, but I'm not going to help them by volunteering additional visual data. It's also political. I'm not participating. And then letter is correct. I had a guy retaliate for declining. He said I was making his job harder and that he'd make my life harder in return. I'm still waiting. Surely, as a TSA employee, he's got lots of connections in government. A lot of these people are unstable.
- numeri 2y ago
  I've declined several times now, and have gotten harassed about it about 3/4 times. Whoever designed the program really did a good job getting buy-in from the lower-level employees.
godelski 2y ago
> They already have a little data, I fail to see why I shouldn't let them have everything. That's the extreme version of your comment. But it is also a common sentiment that people have around social media and other data collection
- MarkMarine 2y ago
  I don’t see opting out as an effective method to counter over reach in this case, sounds like it just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff and the rare people that choose to opt out. Is the idea that a critical mass of people opt out and that slows down security enough that this pilot program is viewed as a failure? The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effective
  - godelski 2y ago
    > The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effective It's not an "OR" problem. You can do both. > just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff The point is to inconvenience them. I'm willing to bet you are exaggerating even to yourself how minimal this is. Besides, little things add up. It's why you're exhausted with this in the first place. It is how we got here. The accumulation of little things.
    - MarkMarine 2y ago
      You’re right about that, and I salute your principled stance, but the last thing I want to deal with is making a protest at the checkpoint before I can get to the lounge. These people are standing between me and a free glass of mid wine and the most comfortable place I’m going to be for the next <y> hours. They also have basically unlimited power to make my day worse, delaying me, searching me, doing all kinds of real violations of my rights. Frankly, the quicker robots take their jobs the better, I hope this speeds it up.
      - godelski 2y ago
Redoubts 2y ago
I wonder how widely this is shared. I was shocked getting in to a Singaporean Airlines flight, and I didn’t even have to present my boarding pass. Just scanned my face at the gate and told me where I was sitting. (This wasn’t even terminal security)

bjtitus 2y ago

Yeah, it seems pretty useless. Nothing stops them from simply doing this on publicly available data online as well. We’ve known for over a decade that DHS, FBI, CBP, and local police buy location data. https://www.propublica.org/article/no-warrant-no-problem-how-the-government-can-still-get-your-digital-data https://www.propublica.org/article/no-warrant-no-problem-how...

mingus88 2y ago

Indeed, not to mention the availability of public social media photos. To think that every intelligence agency on earth hasn’t already trained FR across their databases of IDs and material voluntarily uploaded by themselves and their family/friends… One reason I left Facebook early on was that I didn’t like getting tagged in photos the next morning after everyone would get home from parties. Too bad for me, as long as you have a friend who don’t value your privacy, there is nothing you can do about it. Add to this any public event, where they are well within their rights to take your picture and match it against known threat actors and the only way to not play this game is to be a hermit

y-c-o-m-b 2y ago
> One reason I left Facebook early on was that I didn’t like getting tagged in photos the next morning after everyone would get home from parties. Too bad for me, as long as you have a friend who don’t value your privacy, there is nothing you can do about it. I hated this too, but there was an option to disable it. I know because I used it for that very reason. I don't know if they removed it; I left Facebook probably around a decade ago and it was there when I left.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Disabling never really disables. It just appears that way. Just as nothing is ever really deleted on those platforms.

joezydeco 2y ago

The current program in limited beta test is called "TSA PreCheck Touchless". So you need to be in TSA PreCheck, and you gave them your photo and fingerprints when you voluntarily enrolled in that program. They are probably using your passport biometrics if those are available as well. https://www.tsa.gov/biometrics-technology/evaluating-facial-identification-technology https://www.tsa.gov/biometrics-technology/evaluating-facial-...

sneak 2y ago

Resolution, recency, additional training data to up accuracy.

rgrieselhuber 2y ago

It’s a question of normalization, not data.

cryptonector 2y ago

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42230738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42230738 2. If people stand up for decency, they might get it.

ibejoeb 2y ago

Sure, but I'm not going to help them by volunteering additional visual data. It's also political. I'm not participating. And then letter is correct. I had a guy retaliate for declining. He said I was making his job harder and that he'd make my life harder in return. I'm still waiting. Surely, as a TSA employee, he's got lots of connections in government. A lot of these people are unstable.

numeri 2y ago
I've declined several times now, and have gotten harassed about it about 3/4 times. Whoever designed the program really did a good job getting buy-in from the lower-level employees.

godelski 2y ago

> They already have a little data, I fail to see why I shouldn't let them have everything. That's the extreme version of your comment. But it is also a common sentiment that people have around social media and other data collection

MarkMarine 2y ago
I don’t see opting out as an effective method to counter over reach in this case, sounds like it just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff and the rare people that choose to opt out. Is the idea that a critical mass of people opt out and that slows down security enough that this pilot program is viewed as a failure? The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effective
- godelski 2y ago
  > The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effective It's not an "OR" problem. You can do both. > just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff The point is to inconvenience them. I'm willing to bet you are exaggerating even to yourself how minimal this is. Besides, little things add up. It's why you're exhausted with this in the first place. It is how we got here. The accumulation of little things.
  - MarkMarine 2y ago
    You’re right about that, and I salute your principled stance, but the last thing I want to deal with is making a protest at the checkpoint before I can get to the lounge. These people are standing between me and a free glass of mid wine and the most comfortable place I’m going to be for the next <y> hours. They also have basically unlimited power to make my day worse, delaying me, searching me, doing all kinds of real violations of my rights. Frankly, the quicker robots take their jobs the better, I hope this speeds it up.
    - godelski 2y ago

Redoubts 2y ago

I wonder how widely this is shared. I was shocked getting in to a Singaporean Airlines flight, and I didn’t even have to present my boarding pass. Just scanned my face at the gate and told me where I was sitting. (This wasn’t even terminal security)