4 ms·
> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a sub
by Kamq 2y ago
> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating.
You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors).
It is, however, not really a good idea to be 100% blunt out of the gate. There's a dance to it. But in public, I'm there to make my manager look good, and in private I'll tell them exactly what I think. Once they're confident I'm there to be at their back, it's never gone wrong, even in highly disfunctional orgs (I'm a consultant and get brought in to play "doctor" with hopeless projects a lot).
- dpig_ 2y agoEven if you do it in private, they may take it as a sign of a subordinate who has designs on their job. Or on toppling them at any rate. Insecurity is everywhere.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago[flagged]
- zenogantner 2y ago"The people" are the president's superior.
- thaumasiotes 2y agoOnly in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. Formal structure can stabilize a system and make it resilient to shocks. But there's a limit to how much stability can be provided, and if you provide enough shock, the structure will change.
- refulgentis 2y ago> Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. Fascinating: What companies do you know of that have democratic elections of CEOs?
- Lvl999Noob 2y agoDoesn't nearly every company have a democratic process for choosing CEOs? Just that the voters are only the board members.
- Kamq 2y ago> Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. There's an important difference. Bottom-level employees don't get to choose the CEO at most companies.
- Kamq 2y agoThe president is not above the people. In fact, given the context we're talking about (having to go debate to try to get their votes), he's below them in the hierarchy in this particular social context. The president may be more powerful than any individual person, but when facing the public _collectively_, they're quite literally his boss, as they get to decide if he keeps his job.
- sleazebreeze 2y agoThe Biden case seems like an example of when the senior leader was not given any honest feedback in private and then was humiliated in public. If anything that’s a reason to give feedback to the leader privately without sugar coating.
- thaumasiotes 2y agoAccording to the comment I responded to, the senior leader can't be humiliated in public, because there is no such concept as the senior leader losing face.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- alsetmusic 2y ago> You don't do it in public. The comment you're replying to specifically nullified your example.
- thaumasiotes 2y agoYou might want to read the comments before you decide what they mean. It doesn't say "face can only be lost in public". It says "face can only be lost among peers and superiors".
- jack_pp 2y agoIf you want to understand "face" here's a 56 min video : https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org/video/honor-and-shame-core-values-of-the-biblical-world/ https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org/video/honor-and-sham...
- lazide 2y agoMost people can, some people can’t - and the ones who can’t can be incredibly dangerous.
- jajko 2y agoYeah good luck with getting anything, ever, out of folks that feel butt-hurt due to their fragile emotions, in my experience women often go the extra mile to hold grudges, while sporting big smiles publicly.. That gate is closed for good, and you really have no idea what to expect - be it silent treatment or even subversion and backstabbing. To summarize - each of us is pretty unique, and without going though it you can't know how words can affect other people, even those above you that should know better. But they didn't get to that elevated position via honed skill of listening calmly to their subordinates feedback, did they.
- lazide 2y agoThe challenge we all have is, that just leaves everyone angry with each other and unable to actually make progress or solve any problems together.
- phist_mcgee 2y agoYou sound like a ray of sunshine
- The_Colonel 2y ago> you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors I disagree. Losing the respect of your subordinates is IMHO worse than of your superior.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y agoTo a point. I have found that subordinates always have to feel that they have a "little secret edge" over their managers. In my experience, this is both harmless and necessary. If I, as a manager, can't handle that, then I'm kinda screwed. But it is also highly dependent on the types of people we manage. Source: Manager for over 25 years, of a bunch of folks much smarter and more experienced than me.
- vampiresdoexist 2y agoIf your superior is managing up well, then it truly doesn’t matter if subordinates lose respect. Probably laying groundwork for new ones well in advance of that becoming a real issue for their status.
- Kamq 2y agoYou can lose the respect of your subordinates, but that's different than losing face. Although one may lead to the other, they are different things.
- Archelaos 2y agoI think the OP meant: in private, face is only lost when criticised by a peer or superior.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y agoOne of my favorite pieces of consultant advice, is Beans and Noses: https://archive.uie.com/brainsparks/2011/07/08/beans-and-noses/ https://archive.uie.com/brainsparks/2011/07/08/beans-and-nos...