5 ms·

> And to be honest, the pay cut - while significant - made no change in my daily life. Yep. Speaking for myself, beyond a certain income threshold there has be

> And to be honest, the pay cut - while significant - made no change in my daily life. Yep. Speaking for myself, beyond a certain income threshold there has been no substantial quality of life improvement. My last promotion made it even easier to save for an even earlier retirement, and that's about it. Early retirement is nice, and earlier retirement is even nicer, but given a choice between retiring when my kid is 20 and being home with him every day throughout his whole childhood, there's no contest. I'll happily delay retirement if that's the trade-off that's needed in order to be there while he's growing up.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
I am starting to wonder if the management wants to ensure people in general do not make that connection ( and just want to have, ideally, serfs barely making ends meet ). Covid was a big moment for me in a lot of ways, because I was very pro-corporate for a long time. Having seen some of the bs up close and personal, it made me realize how broken our current system really is ( I still remember 'we are in this together' lip service and 'driving is your zen time' ). Having a kid ( and seeing it grow up ) can be such a radicalizing moment.
- Muromec 2y ago
  Management wants replaceable units which are cheap to source, maintain and replace and utilize to the maximum. That’s all it was ever about
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
    It does ring true and I am not sure I can refute it ( management wants easily replaceable cogs for the machine ). But my overall thought is that humans are a lot of things, but among those things they are also horrible biological machines if seen only through that prism. Our whole value to the system is that we can adjust to the unknown. Still, maybe more importantly, we are not all even the same cogs, but management tries to lazily put us in the same category. I am not sure we can even really call it management. That is actually a mismanagement of human resources.. I think I mentioned this pet theory before here, but it is no longer 1950, but the management has not evolved since that period in US. Maybe it is time to force that evolution.
- pwg 2y ago
  > I am starting to wonder if the management wants to ensure people in general do not make that connection ( and just want to have, ideally, serfs barely making ends meet ). One big reason is they are very worried about their stock grants due to the stock value nosedive that will occur once they finally have to write off all those office space leases as actual losses and report the loss on their SEC forms. If they can force RTO then all the money being spent for office space leases remains in the "business expense" category and the stock price does not tank as a result.
  - dasil003 2y ago
    This narrative has been repeated ad nauseam, but I'm not fully buying it. What is the average S&P 500 exposure to real estate for their stock price? In a handful of cases sure, but en masse it seems much more likely driven by more direct management beliefs about productivity and/or calculation to drive a "silent layoff" through voluntary attrition.
- rachofsunshine 2y ago
  Honestly, if you're not a radical in the year 2024, you haven't been paying attention. I travel around a lot (a thing I can do because I work remotely). From SF to Seattle to Tampa to Salt Lake to the small-town corners of the Carolinas, everyone is struggling. You can feel it in the air, find people identifying with it in every conversation, see the slow decay of every place you know. The dead mall in your hometown, your phone forcing a prompt to take your data to train some AI, the favelas that are now the norm in every major city (regardless of local policy), the fact that you now get a prompt for what is effectively a payday loan when you try to order a pizza. I think people underestimate how poisonous that is to a culture and to a body politic. When you don't believe in reform, you either shrug and let things burn, or you start setting the fires yourself. Neither bodes well.
  - nuancebydefault 2y ago
    Weird, i totally cannot relate. I don't see decay around me. The decay is mostly the geopolitical situation in several places in the world, together with climate change. If it were not in the news, i wouldn't even know.
    - rachofsunshine 2y ago
      Out of curiosity, where do you live?
      - nuancebydefault 2y ago
        A place that the present elect of the US referred to as 'hellhole'.
    - hezralig 2y ago
      Where do you live mate?
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    100%. In the past 40 years we've experienced the largest wealth transfer in history, from workers to shareholders. And you don't even need to have read Piketty to see it (though it helps).
- grecy 2y ago
  > I am starting to wonder if the management wants to ensure people in general do not make that connection ( and just want to have, ideally, serfs barely making ends meet) Why do you think healthcare is tied to employment in the US? Why do you think minimum wage in the US has not gone up in decades? Why do you think 2 weeks leave is normal in the US? Why don’t more Americans travel overseas? At this point you have to be willfully ignorant not to make the connection.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
    There is no reason to make too snarky. The reality is the propaganda machine in US is really well oiled.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    > Why do you think healthcare is tied to employment in the US? Because if you would take THIS money from the people directly, they will be very unhappy. > Why do you think minimum wage in the US has not gone up in decades? Minimum wage is eaten up by an ever-increasing amount of regulations > Why do you think 2 weeks leave is normal in the US? Otherwise, the minimum wage would have to be lowered > Why don’t more Americans travel overseas? It seems like because they already live in the best country
    - rwyinuse 2y ago
      If Americans truly lived in the best country, they could afford enough vacation to just travel for fun. America is indeed the best country for rich, highly successful people. The minimum wage is not eaten by regulations, but the corporate profits which make those few so rich. Ordinary workers are better off in many EU countries, and they naturally make the majority of the population. I think the best country is one which provides the best quality of life for the average and median citizen, not just the elite.
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      Pretty much wrong on all counts.
  - 2y ago
Muromec 2y ago
>but given a choice between retiring when my kid is 20 and being home with him every day throughout his whole childhood, there's no contest This. So much this. I don’t want to start catching up on life after I’m 70 or 60 something and hate every minute before I retire. Once I got my mortage, there is no more reasons to care about exact numbers that much.
- georgeecollins 2y ago
  I heard a financial planner say once that many of his clients don't know how to retire. My Dad worked until he was ninety making money he will never spend. If you enjoy your job and have control over your time and projects, you may also want to keep working. Retirement sounds very appealing when you aren't spending enough time with your friends and family, or when you aren't getting enough relaxation. But there will come a time when your kids won't really want to spend that much time with you. And a hobby you spend all your time on could become an unpaid job. There will be times in your life when you have to be all in on your job. But when its not those times, try to have a balanced life now.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    I "retired." Still go to some events that are particularly interesting, usually in areas that I enjoy spending some extra time--though I did my best when I had a wage. Doing some of what I used to do anyway but on my own terms. I realize doing that is somewhat privileged but it works for me.
  - eastbound 2y ago
    [flagged]
- griomnib 2y ago
  I know somebody who worked, planned, and saved to spend their retirement traveling the world. It was their life ambition. A few years after retirement they got early onset Alzheimer’s.
- dmje 2y ago
  I’m 52. I’ve run a micro tech consultancy with my wife for 15 years. We live by the sea in Cornwall and we’ve chosen every step along the way to deliberately not grow our company by taking on staff, instead using freelancers. We’re comfortable but very far from rich, financially. Instead, we’re rich - honestly, I’d say billionaires! - as a family unit. My eldest has left home now to go to uni and the younger one will go next year. My wife and I have been around for them every step of the way, and it’s been the most beautiful and fulfilling journey - my life’s work! I’ll easily still be working until retirement, probably beyond. I’ll be old and tired and probably pretty useless at tech. But I wouldn’t change a single thing about the last 20 years. It’s been amazing. Everyone’s gotta do what they want to do - but not seizing life and putting your family at the middle of it - that, in my humble opinion, is batshit. We ain’t here long, and the only legacy is our kids and (maybe one day!) our kids kids. Make it count, which in my book doesn’t = “make loads of cash and as a consequence don’t ever see your loved ones”…
insane_dreamer 2y ago
This is a critical point. There seems to be an obsession with “making money so you can retire early” and then what? Your children are grown and left home, you’ve often sacrificed them as well as your own physical and mental health, you don’t have the energy you had in your youth, for what? So you can play golf with other retirees? Or maybe you saved up enough that you can invest in a new startup. Okay fine but that’s not retirement, in fact it may be more work.
- rachofsunshine 2y ago
  It's odd to me that people think the value in excess wealth is just living on a beach somewhere. The value in excess wealth is what you can do with it. You can find a person in need and hand them a thousand dollars for fun. You can fund some program your town needs. You can build a "third space" for your community. There's so much you can do with wealth that isn't just hoarding it! Personally, my goal is to have enough money to buy a giant mansion on the edge of some town and be the weird rich lady you can go to with your problems. If I get richer than that, great! It'll be a bigger mansion and a bigger town. But if you gave me a billion dollars tomorrow, I'd just use it to be a bigger weird rich lady you can go to with your problems.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - thanksgiving 2y ago
    > The value in excess wealth is what you can do with it. You can find a person in need and hand them a thousand dollars for fun. You can fund some program your town needs. You can build a "third space" for your community. There's so much you can do with wealth that isn't just hoarding it! Thank you for your kindness. However, you can't become and definitely won't stay a billionaire if you give away your money. In practical terms, you don't want strangers in your home. There are some bad people in this world. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/24vo34/whats_the_happiest_5word_sentence_you_could_hear/chb4v05/ https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/24vo34/whats_the...
vundercind 2y ago
Those charts that show remaining time you’ll be around someone at a given age are sobering. Even if you live 30 years after your kids are out of the house, odds are only something like 5-10% of your total time with them will be in that 30 years. Similar figures for your own parents and grandparents. Those hours with them are few, especially at ages when they can still do much.
heelix 2y ago
I live about six miles or so from the office. I'm so much more productive (and end up working far longer) at home than in the cattle car hotel configuration. I dislike the idea that they might try to pitch things as 'pay less' if I'm more productive. If I'm in the office, I've lost the day. WFH should not be a reason to make less - it should be considered a benefit like a gym membership. If folks use it, the company comes out ahead in the end.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Pure WFH will naturally tend to translate to making less if you're currently living in a high CoL area, because there are lots of us living in low CoL areas for whom 75% of a Bay Area salary would be a huge raise. If a remote-first company can give someone in a nearby time zone with the same language and cultural background and the same skillset a tempting offer while saving themselves 25% of their salary band, they're going to do it. It's not because they think you're less productive, it's because they're now looking in a wider job market with more competition from people who need less money to live. The converse is also true: if you're living in a low CoL area, WFH can actually bring you a huge pay increase, because salaries balance out somewhere in the middle. (I'll add that I strongly believe that where you live should not impact your income if you're in a remote company, for the reasons you list: if you're in the same country as everyone else, your location of residency has no impact on your value to the company.)
bluGill 2y ago
Don't orget the body wears out as it ages. Already at 50 I find things I cannot do. I don't know how aging will hit you but you really should plan for the day when work isn't possible.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Right, but I'm talking about the difference between retiring at 60 and retiring at 50 or even younger. You don't need a FAANG salary to retire at (what use to be) the normal age or somewhat early, but you do need one to retire very early. I'm saying that I won't choose to chase a very early retirement if doing so compromises the time I can spend with my kids while they're young.
saghm 2y ago
> Speaking for myself, beyond a certain income threshold there has been no substantial quality of life improvement. I strongly agree with this mindset, and I'd argue that it's pretty well-supported as a phenomenon for most people, if not all. Money is a huge deal up to the point where you can live comfortably and without worrying about the future; beyond that, it doesn't really seem to make anyone happier. That being said, it's still a luxury that isn't at all common for most people, but it doesn't require being a millionaire (at least, not with the current level of inflation).
jjav 2y ago
> Early retirement is nice, and earlier retirement is even nicer, but given a choice between retiring when my kid is 20 and being home with him every day throughout his whole childhood, there's no contest. Agreed. I took 3 years off to be with my child every day in elementary school, priceless! It certainly did delay my retirement by a lot more than 3 years but totally worth it.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago

I am starting to wonder if the management wants to ensure people in general do not make that connection ( and just want to have, ideally, serfs barely making ends meet ). Covid was a big moment for me in a lot of ways, because I was very pro-corporate for a long time. Having seen some of the bs up close and personal, it made me realize how broken our current system really is ( I still remember 'we are in this together' lip service and 'driving is your zen time' ). Having a kid ( and seeing it grow up ) can be such a radicalizing moment.

Muromec 2y ago
Management wants replaceable units which are cheap to source, maintain and replace and utilize to the maximum. That’s all it was ever about
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  It does ring true and I am not sure I can refute it ( management wants easily replaceable cogs for the machine ). But my overall thought is that humans are a lot of things, but among those things they are also horrible biological machines if seen only through that prism. Our whole value to the system is that we can adjust to the unknown. Still, maybe more importantly, we are not all even the same cogs, but management tries to lazily put us in the same category. I am not sure we can even really call it management. That is actually a mismanagement of human resources.. I think I mentioned this pet theory before here, but it is no longer 1950, but the management has not evolved since that period in US. Maybe it is time to force that evolution.
pwg 2y ago
> I am starting to wonder if the management wants to ensure people in general do not make that connection ( and just want to have, ideally, serfs barely making ends meet ). One big reason is they are very worried about their stock grants due to the stock value nosedive that will occur once they finally have to write off all those office space leases as actual losses and report the loss on their SEC forms. If they can force RTO then all the money being spent for office space leases remains in the "business expense" category and the stock price does not tank as a result.
- dasil003 2y ago
  This narrative has been repeated ad nauseam, but I'm not fully buying it. What is the average S&P 500 exposure to real estate for their stock price? In a handful of cases sure, but en masse it seems much more likely driven by more direct management beliefs about productivity and/or calculation to drive a "silent layoff" through voluntary attrition.
rachofsunshine 2y ago
Honestly, if you're not a radical in the year 2024, you haven't been paying attention. I travel around a lot (a thing I can do because I work remotely). From SF to Seattle to Tampa to Salt Lake to the small-town corners of the Carolinas, everyone is struggling. You can feel it in the air, find people identifying with it in every conversation, see the slow decay of every place you know. The dead mall in your hometown, your phone forcing a prompt to take your data to train some AI, the favelas that are now the norm in every major city (regardless of local policy), the fact that you now get a prompt for what is effectively a payday loan when you try to order a pizza. I think people underestimate how poisonous that is to a culture and to a body politic. When you don't believe in reform, you either shrug and let things burn, or you start setting the fires yourself. Neither bodes well.
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  Weird, i totally cannot relate. I don't see decay around me. The decay is mostly the geopolitical situation in several places in the world, together with climate change. If it were not in the news, i wouldn't even know.
  - rachofsunshine 2y ago
    Out of curiosity, where do you live?
    - nuancebydefault 2y ago
      A place that the present elect of the US referred to as 'hellhole'.
  - hezralig 2y ago
    Where do you live mate?
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  100%. In the past 40 years we've experienced the largest wealth transfer in history, from workers to shareholders. And you don't even need to have read Piketty to see it (though it helps).
grecy 2y ago
> I am starting to wonder if the management wants to ensure people in general do not make that connection ( and just want to have, ideally, serfs barely making ends meet) Why do you think healthcare is tied to employment in the US? Why do you think minimum wage in the US has not gone up in decades? Why do you think 2 weeks leave is normal in the US? Why don’t more Americans travel overseas? At this point you have to be willfully ignorant not to make the connection.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  There is no reason to make too snarky. The reality is the propaganda machine in US is really well oiled.
- Ray20 2y ago
  > Why do you think healthcare is tied to employment in the US? Because if you would take THIS money from the people directly, they will be very unhappy. > Why do you think minimum wage in the US has not gone up in decades? Minimum wage is eaten up by an ever-increasing amount of regulations > Why do you think 2 weeks leave is normal in the US? Otherwise, the minimum wage would have to be lowered > Why don’t more Americans travel overseas? It seems like because they already live in the best country
  - rwyinuse 2y ago
    If Americans truly lived in the best country, they could afford enough vacation to just travel for fun. America is indeed the best country for rich, highly successful people. The minimum wage is not eaten by regulations, but the corporate profits which make those few so rich. Ordinary workers are better off in many EU countries, and they naturally make the majority of the population. I think the best country is one which provides the best quality of life for the average and median citizen, not just the elite.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Pretty much wrong on all counts.
- 2y ago

Muromec 2y ago

>but given a choice between retiring when my kid is 20 and being home with him every day throughout his whole childhood, there's no contest This. So much this. I don’t want to start catching up on life after I’m 70 or 60 something and hate every minute before I retire. Once I got my mortage, there is no more reasons to care about exact numbers that much.

georgeecollins 2y ago
I heard a financial planner say once that many of his clients don't know how to retire. My Dad worked until he was ninety making money he will never spend. If you enjoy your job and have control over your time and projects, you may also want to keep working. Retirement sounds very appealing when you aren't spending enough time with your friends and family, or when you aren't getting enough relaxation. But there will come a time when your kids won't really want to spend that much time with you. And a hobby you spend all your time on could become an unpaid job. There will be times in your life when you have to be all in on your job. But when its not those times, try to have a balanced life now.
- ghaff 2y ago
  I "retired." Still go to some events that are particularly interesting, usually in areas that I enjoy spending some extra time--though I did my best when I had a wage. Doing some of what I used to do anyway but on my own terms. I realize doing that is somewhat privileged but it works for me.
- eastbound 2y ago
  [flagged]
griomnib 2y ago
I know somebody who worked, planned, and saved to spend their retirement traveling the world. It was their life ambition. A few years after retirement they got early onset Alzheimer’s.
dmje 2y ago
I’m 52. I’ve run a micro tech consultancy with my wife for 15 years. We live by the sea in Cornwall and we’ve chosen every step along the way to deliberately not grow our company by taking on staff, instead using freelancers. We’re comfortable but very far from rich, financially. Instead, we’re rich - honestly, I’d say billionaires! - as a family unit. My eldest has left home now to go to uni and the younger one will go next year. My wife and I have been around for them every step of the way, and it’s been the most beautiful and fulfilling journey - my life’s work! I’ll easily still be working until retirement, probably beyond. I’ll be old and tired and probably pretty useless at tech. But I wouldn’t change a single thing about the last 20 years. It’s been amazing. Everyone’s gotta do what they want to do - but not seizing life and putting your family at the middle of it - that, in my humble opinion, is batshit. We ain’t here long, and the only legacy is our kids and (maybe one day!) our kids kids. Make it count, which in my book doesn’t = “make loads of cash and as a consequence don’t ever see your loved ones”…

insane_dreamer 2y ago

This is a critical point. There seems to be an obsession with “making money so you can retire early” and then what? Your children are grown and left home, you’ve often sacrificed them as well as your own physical and mental health, you don’t have the energy you had in your youth, for what? So you can play golf with other retirees? Or maybe you saved up enough that you can invest in a new startup. Okay fine but that’s not retirement, in fact it may be more work.

rachofsunshine 2y ago
It's odd to me that people think the value in excess wealth is just living on a beach somewhere. The value in excess wealth is what you can do with it. You can find a person in need and hand them a thousand dollars for fun. You can fund some program your town needs. You can build a "third space" for your community. There's so much you can do with wealth that isn't just hoarding it! Personally, my goal is to have enough money to buy a giant mansion on the edge of some town and be the weird rich lady you can go to with your problems. If I get richer than that, great! It'll be a bigger mansion and a bigger town. But if you gave me a billion dollars tomorrow, I'd just use it to be a bigger weird rich lady you can go to with your problems.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- thanksgiving 2y ago
  > The value in excess wealth is what you can do with it. You can find a person in need and hand them a thousand dollars for fun. You can fund some program your town needs. You can build a "third space" for your community. There's so much you can do with wealth that isn't just hoarding it! Thank you for your kindness. However, you can't become and definitely won't stay a billionaire if you give away your money. In practical terms, you don't want strangers in your home. There are some bad people in this world. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/24vo34/whats_the_happiest_5word_sentence_you_could_hear/chb4v05/ https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/24vo34/whats_the...

vundercind 2y ago

Those charts that show remaining time you’ll be around someone at a given age are sobering. Even if you live 30 years after your kids are out of the house, odds are only something like 5-10% of your total time with them will be in that 30 years. Similar figures for your own parents and grandparents. Those hours with them are few, especially at ages when they can still do much.

heelix 2y ago

I live about six miles or so from the office. I'm so much more productive (and end up working far longer) at home than in the cattle car hotel configuration. I dislike the idea that they might try to pitch things as 'pay less' if I'm more productive. If I'm in the office, I've lost the day. WFH should not be a reason to make less - it should be considered a benefit like a gym membership. If folks use it, the company comes out ahead in the end.

lolinder 2y ago
Pure WFH will naturally tend to translate to making less if you're currently living in a high CoL area, because there are lots of us living in low CoL areas for whom 75% of a Bay Area salary would be a huge raise. If a remote-first company can give someone in a nearby time zone with the same language and cultural background and the same skillset a tempting offer while saving themselves 25% of their salary band, they're going to do it. It's not because they think you're less productive, it's because they're now looking in a wider job market with more competition from people who need less money to live. The converse is also true: if you're living in a low CoL area, WFH can actually bring you a huge pay increase, because salaries balance out somewhere in the middle. (I'll add that I strongly believe that where you live should not impact your income if you're in a remote company, for the reasons you list: if you're in the same country as everyone else, your location of residency has no impact on your value to the company.)

bluGill 2y ago

Don't orget the body wears out as it ages. Already at 50 I find things I cannot do. I don't know how aging will hit you but you really should plan for the day when work isn't possible.

lolinder 2y ago
Right, but I'm talking about the difference between retiring at 60 and retiring at 50 or even younger. You don't need a FAANG salary to retire at (what use to be) the normal age or somewhat early, but you do need one to retire very early. I'm saying that I won't choose to chase a very early retirement if doing so compromises the time I can spend with my kids while they're young.

saghm 2y ago

> Speaking for myself, beyond a certain income threshold there has been no substantial quality of life improvement. I strongly agree with this mindset, and I'd argue that it's pretty well-supported as a phenomenon for most people, if not all. Money is a huge deal up to the point where you can live comfortably and without worrying about the future; beyond that, it doesn't really seem to make anyone happier. That being said, it's still a luxury that isn't at all common for most people, but it doesn't require being a millionaire (at least, not with the current level of inflation).

jjav 2y ago

> Early retirement is nice, and earlier retirement is even nicer, but given a choice between retiring when my kid is 20 and being home with him every day throughout his whole childhood, there's no contest. Agreed. I took 3 years off to be with my child every day in elementary school, priceless! It certainly did delay my retirement by a lot more than 3 years but totally worth it.