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This makes intuitive sense---men have more opportunities to make a decent living in the trades without a college degree. See e.g. https://iwpr.org/numbers-matte

This makes intuitive sense---men have more opportunities to make a decent living in the trades without a college degree. See e.g. https://iwpr.org/numbers-matter-clarifying-the-data-on-women-working-in-construction/ https://iwpr.org/numbers-matter-clarifying-the-data-on-women....

alexnewman 2y ago
True but the trades are incredibly small Trade,Estimated Employment Construction Laborers,1,019,090 First-Line Supervisors of Construction Trades and Extraction Workers,777,420 Electricians,712,580 Carpenters,700,290 Operating Engineers and Other Construction Equipment Operators,450,370 Bls2023 Where as there’s nearly 4 million acredited teachers and 3 million registered nurses
- theoreticalmal 2y ago
  What do you mean incredibly small? Don’t you numbers show trade jobs are on par with nurses and teachers?
  - teachrdan 2y ago
    No, it shows that all trades jobs put together make up about as many jobs as nurses OR teachers. This is some basic media literacy that needs to be used when media outlets like the Wall Street Journal publish articles suggesting that all unemployed Americans should just become electricians. (or whatever other trades job they trot out) These jobs can be lucrative for men without a college diploma but are a small fraction of jobs in the USA.
- holub008 2y ago
  The IWPR link from above (with data from the US BLS) suggests that the 320K women in construction trades represent 4% of the total field, implying that there are about 8 million total construction trade jobs in the US. I'm not sure how many construction workers hold 4 year degrees, but it seems plausible this would explain a large portion of the gap.
- Aloisius 2y ago
  The skilled trades in the BLS stats are[1]: 45-0000 Farming, Fishing, and Forestry Occupations 432,200 47-0000 Construction and Extraction Occupations 6,225,630 49-0000 Installation, Maintenance, and Repair Occupations 5,989,460 51-0000 Production Occupations 8,770,170 53-0000 Transportation and Material Moving Occupations 13,752,760 That adds up to 35 million total employed. [1] https://blog.dol.gov/2023/03/21/data-spotlight-employment-of-women-with-disabilities-in-skilled-trade-professions https://blog.dol.gov/2023/03/21/data-spotlight-employment-of...
- alexnewman 2y ago
  So I admit some mistakes on this post - these aren't the only trades. Sorry i got confused by chatgpt - I only meant to point out, this seems like a very small amount of people compared to what I thought - Not a mistake, but I was kindof joking with the post and it wasn't obvious. For this alone I deserved the massive downvote I got. I do think these numbers don't reflect the true number of people working in the field as say registered nurses or professional teachers because... how do i say this in a nice way.... many of them may be sharing a ssn and that's much more dangerous from a regulatory perspective than doing that as a REGISTERED nurse or PROFESSIONAL teacher. However there's a lot of peop[le nursing and teaching who aren't in those stats as well </rant
janalsncm 2y ago
I would argue this is mistaking cause for effect. Girls are outperforming boys in high school, and therefore entering college at higher rates and graduating college at higher rates. It’s not that boys are making a decision in high school not to go to college and therefore letting their grades slip. Once your grades slip, pathways to college narrow dramatically. To illustrate my point, we can compare earnings of men with no college to women with a bachelor’s degree. Men make $45k, women make $65k. To believe that men are choosing trades you have to believe that men would voluntarily choose to make 30% less. https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/labor-market-and-economic-trends-for-young-adults/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/labor-m...
- matt3210 2y ago
  State universities outside tier 1 cities don't care about grades except that they are passing (D or higher).
  - nradov 2y ago
    Which state is that? Most students need at least a B average for admission to even the lowest rated schools in the California State University system, like CSU East Bay or CSU Dominguez Hills.
    - jandrewrogers 2y ago
      I don’t know what it is like today but that was not the case in the 1990s. I know people who got into San Jose State for STEM on a 2.xx GPA.
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      The CSUs are still more competitive than most state schools; and a B average is very low in our grade inflated world.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      time could have changed, but a decade ago local high schools in my CSU were guaranteed entrance with a 2.0 and a 1200 SAT score... in the days where we still had the 2400 system. So I suppose that would be 800-900 in the 1600 point system. But this is 12-14 years out of date. Maybe standards rose or they couldn't continue this guarantee.
proc0 2y ago
I don't think it's "more opportunities". I'm sure there's a statistics on how much women do not want to be electricians, plumbers, etc., which is fine, just saying it's individual choices not lack of opportunity.
- vannevar 2y ago
  I understand what you're saying, but in a broader sense there aren't as many opportunities for a woman without a college degree to earn a comparable living as a college graduate, given their prevailing preferences for types of work. And of course we don't know how much the fact that there are so few women plumbers influences a young woman's decision.
  - proc0 2y ago
    Seems we're not thinking about what an opportunity is in the same way. If someone can go and apply and it's part of the law that the employer doesn't discriminate based on gender then the opportunities are there. Women only need to go and do that thing. I agree to some extent there should be some encouragement and welcoming in order to incentivize etc. If we zoom out we can see that even the perspective of "who is doing this might motivate me to do it" is already misplaced for many technical jobs. I would think the best way to motivate anyone to do something technical would be to convince them that it is worth doing, not by proxy (because someone like you is doing it) but directly... because that activity is worth doing.

alexnewman 2y ago

True but the trades are incredibly small Trade,Estimated Employment Construction Laborers,1,019,090 First-Line Supervisors of Construction Trades and Extraction Workers,777,420 Electricians,712,580 Carpenters,700,290 Operating Engineers and Other Construction Equipment Operators,450,370 Bls2023 Where as there’s nearly 4 million acredited teachers and 3 million registered nurses

theoreticalmal 2y ago
What do you mean incredibly small? Don’t you numbers show trade jobs are on par with nurses and teachers?
- teachrdan 2y ago
  No, it shows that all trades jobs put together make up about as many jobs as nurses OR teachers. This is some basic media literacy that needs to be used when media outlets like the Wall Street Journal publish articles suggesting that all unemployed Americans should just become electricians. (or whatever other trades job they trot out) These jobs can be lucrative for men without a college diploma but are a small fraction of jobs in the USA.
holub008 2y ago
The IWPR link from above (with data from the US BLS) suggests that the 320K women in construction trades represent 4% of the total field, implying that there are about 8 million total construction trade jobs in the US. I'm not sure how many construction workers hold 4 year degrees, but it seems plausible this would explain a large portion of the gap.
Aloisius 2y ago
The skilled trades in the BLS stats are[1]: 45-0000 Farming, Fishing, and Forestry Occupations 432,200 47-0000 Construction and Extraction Occupations 6,225,630 49-0000 Installation, Maintenance, and Repair Occupations 5,989,460 51-0000 Production Occupations 8,770,170 53-0000 Transportation and Material Moving Occupations 13,752,760 That adds up to 35 million total employed. [1] https://blog.dol.gov/2023/03/21/data-spotlight-employment-of-women-with-disabilities-in-skilled-trade-professions https://blog.dol.gov/2023/03/21/data-spotlight-employment-of...
alexnewman 2y ago
So I admit some mistakes on this post - these aren't the only trades. Sorry i got confused by chatgpt - I only meant to point out, this seems like a very small amount of people compared to what I thought - Not a mistake, but I was kindof joking with the post and it wasn't obvious. For this alone I deserved the massive downvote I got. I do think these numbers don't reflect the true number of people working in the field as say registered nurses or professional teachers because... how do i say this in a nice way.... many of them may be sharing a ssn and that's much more dangerous from a regulatory perspective than doing that as a REGISTERED nurse or PROFESSIONAL teacher. However there's a lot of peop[le nursing and teaching who aren't in those stats as well </rant

janalsncm 2y ago

I would argue this is mistaking cause for effect. Girls are outperforming boys in high school, and therefore entering college at higher rates and graduating college at higher rates. It’s not that boys are making a decision in high school not to go to college and therefore letting their grades slip. Once your grades slip, pathways to college narrow dramatically. To illustrate my point, we can compare earnings of men with no college to women with a bachelor’s degree. Men make $45k, women make $65k. To believe that men are choosing trades you have to believe that men would voluntarily choose to make 30% less. https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/labor-market-and-economic-trends-for-young-adults/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/labor-m...

matt3210 2y ago
State universities outside tier 1 cities don't care about grades except that they are passing (D or higher).
- nradov 2y ago
  Which state is that? Most students need at least a B average for admission to even the lowest rated schools in the California State University system, like CSU East Bay or CSU Dominguez Hills.
  - jandrewrogers 2y ago
    I don’t know what it is like today but that was not the case in the 1990s. I know people who got into San Jose State for STEM on a 2.xx GPA.
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    The CSUs are still more competitive than most state schools; and a B average is very low in our grade inflated world.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    time could have changed, but a decade ago local high schools in my CSU were guaranteed entrance with a 2.0 and a 1200 SAT score... in the days where we still had the 2400 system. So I suppose that would be 800-900 in the 1600 point system. But this is 12-14 years out of date. Maybe standards rose or they couldn't continue this guarantee.

proc0 2y ago

I don't think it's "more opportunities". I'm sure there's a statistics on how much women do not want to be electricians, plumbers, etc., which is fine, just saying it's individual choices not lack of opportunity.

vannevar 2y ago
I understand what you're saying, but in a broader sense there aren't as many opportunities for a woman without a college degree to earn a comparable living as a college graduate, given their prevailing preferences for types of work. And of course we don't know how much the fact that there are so few women plumbers influences a young woman's decision.
- proc0 2y ago
  Seems we're not thinking about what an opportunity is in the same way. If someone can go and apply and it's part of the law that the employer doesn't discriminate based on gender then the opportunities are there. Women only need to go and do that thing. I agree to some extent there should be some encouragement and welcoming in order to incentivize etc. If we zoom out we can see that even the perspective of "who is doing this might motivate me to do it" is already misplaced for many technical jobs. I would think the best way to motivate anyone to do something technical would be to convince them that it is worth doing, not by proxy (because someone like you is doing it) but directly... because that activity is worth doing.