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This design highlights a major failing with UK cycle "infrastructure". Here, we often have shared use pavements with sometimes a bit of white paint to designate

This design highlights a major failing with UK cycle "infrastructure". Here, we often have shared use pavements with sometimes a bit of white paint to designate the pedestrian and cycle lanes, but they cede priority at every single side road. The problem is that it makes cycling using them really awkward as it takes significant energy for cyclists to slow down and then speed up multiple times. The irony is that if you just use the main road instead, then you have priority over all the side roads, so the bike "lane" is pretty much useless. Of course, we also suffer from just having fragments of cycle infrastructure that don't join up and most of the time, the infrastructure consists of "magic" paint that is somehow going to prevent motorists from parking and blocking the lane (it doesn't and they do). Edit: Thought I'd share the sheer incompetence that we're faced with. Here's a "cycle lane" in the centre of Bristol that doesn't even use a different colour, so pedestrians aren't particularly aware of it which just leads to unnecessary confrontation - peds and cyclists fighting over the scraps left over from designing for motorists. https://maps.app.goo.gl/JjfG1YJBwaqyov5H8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/JjfG1YJBwaqyov5H8

zelos 2y ago
It's even worse in my UK village. they don't even paint white lines, just the white outline of a bike every few hundred meters on the road.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  Here's a premium shared use pavement in Bristol (allegedly a "cycling city") that shows what you're missing https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gw3SBWT9WdYLDTN3A https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gw3SBWT9WdYLDTN3A
  - reddalo 2y ago
    lol are you serious? A "bike path" with f*cking trees and lightposts right in the middle? It looks like one of those EU-funding scams.
    - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
      That path has been there a long time and is actually quite popular with cyclists as it goes alongside a very busy road that has an almost permanent queue on one side and lots of big lorries/coaches coming along the other side, so it's quite challenging to filter past the stationery vehicles without getting in the way of oncoming traffic. For some more giggles, here's one of my favourite bits of "infrastructure" that's further along that same road (Coronation Rd, A370) on the other side. 5m of faded paint. https://maps.app.goo.gl/znjzJ7bphdqhH5Sk7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/znjzJ7bphdqhH5Sk7
      - reddalo 2y ago
        lol that's a place where a modal filter would be perfect; they could make a "hole" in the curb to only let bikes go straight through. Instead, they decided to put 5 metres of white paint in a random way. Great!
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  I'm picturing a wrecked bike and a broken body every few hundred meters, painted in reflective white paint
rsynnott 2y ago
In Ireland, Dublin City Council has mostly gone with lanes which are either on the side of the road (with or without bollards), or entirely separate, whereas South Dublin County Council prefers shared use pavements. The two local authorities are contiguous, so it's all a bit jarring when you go between them. Separately, a national project, Busconnects, is putting in its own bike lanes. Some of these are... interesting: https://irishcycle.com/2023/03/23/busconnects-approach-to-cycle-paths-and-bus-stops-is-so-mixed-up-do-they-even-know-what-they-are-doing/ https://irishcycle.com/2023/03/23/busconnects-approach-to-cy...
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  It's astounding that we can't seem to just copy successful ideas from other countries and then ensure that all the councils etc. adhere to the standards. Of course, it doesn't help that the UK seems to keep producing highly aggressive drivers that want to punish cyclists that dare to use the public roads.
  - datadrivenangel 2y ago
    ideas are only one part of a successfully functioning sociotechnical system. The bike intersections won't work if users behave differently (just like how automobile traffic is terrible if you get different driving styles mixing).
    - emn13 2y ago
      You might interpret that clearly true statement in two different ways: - That it's not feasible to incorporate this style of traffic design elsewhere since cultures differ - That we need to consider how traffic engineering (eventually) shapes user behavior. I'm convinced the second one is the one that quite quickly is much more predictive of outcomes. These Dutch-style intersections make the safe behavior natural and intuitive, and habits will adapt quickly where they're used _consistently._ To be explicit: the whole point of road design like this is that it does _not_ rely a lot on training users on details of the rules of the road. In fact, precisely those remaining quirks (e.g. scenarios when traffic approaching on-road white yield triangles nevertheless has the right of way in the Netherlands) are the exceptional vestigial weakness that proves just how obvious the rest is. Of course, if every town picks it's own patterns to follow, that's going to be less predictable for road users, and thus frustrating and ultimately dangerous.
itronitron 2y ago
Here is a related article from a UK perspective: https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/03/how-does-a-dutch-environment-work-for-pedestrians https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/03/how-does-...
anentropic 2y ago
Yeah it really strikes me when reading the OP article that this is what a country that's "got it's shit together" looks like... OTOH I did wonder how feasible it is to transfer such a well-designed system to UK towns and cities where it seems like available space would be too cramped to recreate all those nice features though
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  The UK isn't alone in having old narrow streets, so it's just a case of re-allocating space. However, it does require a change in mindset so that rather than designers focussing on how to maximise driver speeds, they need to minimise driver speeds at junctions and make it clear that pedestrians have priority.
- zelos 2y ago
  The Netherlands really does a great job on infrastructure. It's not like they're even particularly anti-car: driving there is a pretty decent experience too. It's extremely depressing driving onto the ferry in Hook of Holland and then driving off at Harwich.
  - com 2y ago
    I’ve always thought of the Netherlands as Infrastructire Country, so much of that territory has been significantly altered over the last four or five thousand years that it’s leaked into their world view. Problems can be solved with enough time, rough consensus and effort. It seems like such a weirdly outdated modernist view when living in other places.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    Its amazing, its almost as if driving is better when a huge amount of trips are instead done with transportation systems that require far less space and are far better for the environment. Its as if drivers benefit just as much from good driving alternatives as non-drivers. But somehow this is consistently ignored by the 'pro-driving' crowd. You are literally improving the overall efficiency of the whole system at minimal cost.
- 2y ago
globular-toast 2y ago
The problem in the UK is a deep cultural one. First we have to understand that, all things being equal, cars "win" by default on the roads. They are bigger, heavier, faster and more powerful (thanks to burning fossil fuels), and the operators are more reckless and inconsiderate due to being shielded from the outside world. That means their presence on the roads automatically makes it more dangerous and unpleasant for everyone else. Second notice that primary routes are always designed for cars first. Every two places has a primary route connecting it. Depending on the importance of the route that route will have some level of protection against things like flooding, subsidence etc. and also be generally higher quality. That primary route is always for cars. Due to the above, that generally makes it undesirable or often practically unavailable for non-motorised traffic. See, for example, dual carriageways. Technically everyone has a right to use them by any means (they have paid for it, after all), but you'd be crazy to walk/cycle down one. Third notice that cars are basically untouchable. It's considered a perfectly acceptable and normal part of driving to put people's lives in danger by driving too close and too fast etc. But nobody dares touch a car. They have the capability of killing or seriously injuring people, but people don't have the capability of killing them (the cars). The police will laugh at you if you report a car driving too closely. But scratching a car or something? Police will be on your case. Basically, we value metal boxes on wheels more than people's bodies. Fourth notice that every part of the road network is designed to make it easier for cars at the detriment of pedestrians and cyclists. Why does a pedestrian need to press a button to cross the road? Why, upon pressing the button, must the pedestrian wait to cross? Why doesn't the light cycle start immediately? There is absolutely no sense at all in making the pedestrian wait. But everyone is used to it and doesn't question it; it's just the way it is. But what it does is makes being a pedestrian a third class status. It's these little things, like having to sit at the back of the bus, that chip away at people's ability to feel like an equal member of society. If you walk or cycle you are under no illusion that you come second to cars. It's little wonder people choose the car if they can.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  > See, for example, dual carriageways. Technically everyone has a right to use them by any means (they have paid for it, after all), but you'd be crazy to walk/cycle down one. I regularly cycle along the dual carriageway part of the A370. Whilst I get that it can be unnerving for most cyclists, dual carriageways are well designed for cycling along as they typically have great visibility (drivers can see you from a distance) and there's a whole lane for drivers to overtake safely. > Fourth notice that every part of the road network is designed to make it easier for cars at the detriment of pedestrians and cyclists. Why does a pedestrian need to press a button to cross the road? Why, upon pressing the button, must the pedestrian wait to cross? Why doesn't the light cycle start immediately? There is absolutely no sense at all in making the pedestrian wait. But everyone is used to it and doesn't question it; it's just the way it is. But what it does is makes being a pedestrian a third class status. It's these little things, like having to sit at the back of the bus, that chip away at people's ability to feel like an equal member of society. If you walk or cycle you are under no illusion that you come second to cars. It's little wonder people choose the car if they can. I think a big part of the problem is that politicians are heavily influenced by car/oil lobbyists. What we need are brave politicians that are forward looking and have a vision. By the way, I like to refer to the pedestrian crossing buttons as "beg buttons".
reddalo 2y ago
Italy has exactly the same problem. Not only we have a horrible infrastructure (the quality of our asphalt is abysmal), but cycle paths are pretty much always shared with pedestrians, and they're filled with obstacles (manholes, poles, chicanes...). Moreover, bike paths are usually built on only one side of the road as a two-way path. It's dangerous for everybody involved, especially when a car has to stop and give way to both sides (spoiler: cars don't do it). Everything makes biking on a bike path a slower and horrible experience, so nobody uses bike paths and then a vicious circle ensues. We should all learn from the Ducth and the Danes.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  Italy is often associated with cycle sport and I believe there are some excellent rides over there, but certainly the cities that I've been to (only Rome and Naples) don't look at all encouraging to cycle around. Naples is almost a perfect example of how to cram in cars into the smallest possible streets and a lot of the streets have to have metal bollards to provide some kind of protection for the pedestrians from the cars and mopeds.
  - reddalo 2y ago
    Yes, both Rome and Naples are in the "South" of Italy, and the situation is worse there than in the North. Milan, Ferrara, Bolzano, Modena, Bologna are just some Northern cities where cycling is encouraged and I can see them trying to get a better infrastructure; but unfortunately there's still a long way to go.
- nedt 2y ago
  That's also the case in other places. The reason is easy. Cycle paths are not build for cyclist, but to them away from the main street and not be an "obstacle" to cars.
Hates_ 2y ago
I was pleasantly surprised to find one of the major London cycle lanes that goes from Tower Bridge to Greenwich gives priority to cyclists crossing side roads https://maps.app.goo.gl/b3SweRqzvNehTcE38 https://maps.app.goo.gl/b3SweRqzvNehTcE38
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
These are death trap bike lanes. Not actually suitable for cycling by an adult operating their vehicle beyond a walking pace.
pkulak 2y ago
It is so adorable when Europeans complain about bike/transit infrastructure. Here’s my bike lane. It’s that white strip of paint on the right there: https://maps.app.goo.gl/HHcHi3u5xbAM4jxY7?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/HHcHi3u5xbAM4jxY7?g_st=ic
- asveikau 2y ago
  And yet when we have "bike lanes" like this, people complain that it's too much, too intrusive, ruins local business, or should be a parking spot or lane for deliveries.
CrispyKerosene 2y ago
Its interesting how my brain immediately sees the ambiguous bike lane mixed in with pedestrians spaces, and thinks 'That's dangerous', but i am not conditioned to think the same way about bicycles being forced to mix with car traffic, or pedestrians forced onto very narrow sidewalks in the clearzone of roads.

zelos 2y ago

It's even worse in my UK village. they don't even paint white lines, just the white outline of a bike every few hundred meters on the road.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
Here's a premium shared use pavement in Bristol (allegedly a "cycling city") that shows what you're missing https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gw3SBWT9WdYLDTN3A https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gw3SBWT9WdYLDTN3A
- reddalo 2y ago
  lol are you serious? A "bike path" with f*cking trees and lightposts right in the middle? It looks like one of those EU-funding scams.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    That path has been there a long time and is actually quite popular with cyclists as it goes alongside a very busy road that has an almost permanent queue on one side and lots of big lorries/coaches coming along the other side, so it's quite challenging to filter past the stationery vehicles without getting in the way of oncoming traffic. For some more giggles, here's one of my favourite bits of "infrastructure" that's further along that same road (Coronation Rd, A370) on the other side. 5m of faded paint. https://maps.app.goo.gl/znjzJ7bphdqhH5Sk7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/znjzJ7bphdqhH5Sk7
    - reddalo 2y ago
      lol that's a place where a modal filter would be perfect; they could make a "hole" in the curb to only let bikes go straight through. Instead, they decided to put 5 metres of white paint in a random way. Great!
readthenotes1 2y ago
I'm picturing a wrecked bike and a broken body every few hundred meters, painted in reflective white paint

rsynnott 2y ago

In Ireland, Dublin City Council has mostly gone with lanes which are either on the side of the road (with or without bollards), or entirely separate, whereas South Dublin County Council prefers shared use pavements. The two local authorities are contiguous, so it's all a bit jarring when you go between them. Separately, a national project, Busconnects, is putting in its own bike lanes. Some of these are... interesting: https://irishcycle.com/2023/03/23/busconnects-approach-to-cycle-paths-and-bus-stops-is-so-mixed-up-do-they-even-know-what-they-are-doing/ https://irishcycle.com/2023/03/23/busconnects-approach-to-cy...

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
It's astounding that we can't seem to just copy successful ideas from other countries and then ensure that all the councils etc. adhere to the standards. Of course, it doesn't help that the UK seems to keep producing highly aggressive drivers that want to punish cyclists that dare to use the public roads.
- datadrivenangel 2y ago
  ideas are only one part of a successfully functioning sociotechnical system. The bike intersections won't work if users behave differently (just like how automobile traffic is terrible if you get different driving styles mixing).
  - emn13 2y ago
    You might interpret that clearly true statement in two different ways: - That it's not feasible to incorporate this style of traffic design elsewhere since cultures differ - That we need to consider how traffic engineering (eventually) shapes user behavior. I'm convinced the second one is the one that quite quickly is much more predictive of outcomes. These Dutch-style intersections make the safe behavior natural and intuitive, and habits will adapt quickly where they're used _consistently._ To be explicit: the whole point of road design like this is that it does _not_ rely a lot on training users on details of the rules of the road. In fact, precisely those remaining quirks (e.g. scenarios when traffic approaching on-road white yield triangles nevertheless has the right of way in the Netherlands) are the exceptional vestigial weakness that proves just how obvious the rest is. Of course, if every town picks it's own patterns to follow, that's going to be less predictable for road users, and thus frustrating and ultimately dangerous.

itronitron 2y ago

Here is a related article from a UK perspective: https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/03/how-does-a-dutch-environment-work-for-pedestrians https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/03/how-does-...

anentropic 2y ago

Yeah it really strikes me when reading the OP article that this is what a country that's "got it's shit together" looks like... OTOH I did wonder how feasible it is to transfer such a well-designed system to UK towns and cities where it seems like available space would be too cramped to recreate all those nice features though

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
The UK isn't alone in having old narrow streets, so it's just a case of re-allocating space. However, it does require a change in mindset so that rather than designers focussing on how to maximise driver speeds, they need to minimise driver speeds at junctions and make it clear that pedestrians have priority.
zelos 2y ago
The Netherlands really does a great job on infrastructure. It's not like they're even particularly anti-car: driving there is a pretty decent experience too. It's extremely depressing driving onto the ferry in Hook of Holland and then driving off at Harwich.
- com 2y ago
  I’ve always thought of the Netherlands as Infrastructire Country, so much of that territory has been significantly altered over the last four or five thousand years that it’s leaked into their world view. Problems can be solved with enough time, rough consensus and effort. It seems like such a weirdly outdated modernist view when living in other places.
- panick21_ 2y ago
  Its amazing, its almost as if driving is better when a huge amount of trips are instead done with transportation systems that require far less space and are far better for the environment. Its as if drivers benefit just as much from good driving alternatives as non-drivers. But somehow this is consistently ignored by the 'pro-driving' crowd. You are literally improving the overall efficiency of the whole system at minimal cost.
2y ago

globular-toast 2y ago

The problem in the UK is a deep cultural one. First we have to understand that, all things being equal, cars "win" by default on the roads. They are bigger, heavier, faster and more powerful (thanks to burning fossil fuels), and the operators are more reckless and inconsiderate due to being shielded from the outside world. That means their presence on the roads automatically makes it more dangerous and unpleasant for everyone else. Second notice that primary routes are always designed for cars first. Every two places has a primary route connecting it. Depending on the importance of the route that route will have some level of protection against things like flooding, subsidence etc. and also be generally higher quality. That primary route is always for cars. Due to the above, that generally makes it undesirable or often practically unavailable for non-motorised traffic. See, for example, dual carriageways. Technically everyone has a right to use them by any means (they have paid for it, after all), but you'd be crazy to walk/cycle down one. Third notice that cars are basically untouchable. It's considered a perfectly acceptable and normal part of driving to put people's lives in danger by driving too close and too fast etc. But nobody dares touch a car. They have the capability of killing or seriously injuring people, but people don't have the capability of killing them (the cars). The police will laugh at you if you report a car driving too closely. But scratching a car or something? Police will be on your case. Basically, we value metal boxes on wheels more than people's bodies. Fourth notice that every part of the road network is designed to make it easier for cars at the detriment of pedestrians and cyclists. Why does a pedestrian need to press a button to cross the road? Why, upon pressing the button, must the pedestrian wait to cross? Why doesn't the light cycle start immediately? There is absolutely no sense at all in making the pedestrian wait. But everyone is used to it and doesn't question it; it's just the way it is. But what it does is makes being a pedestrian a third class status. It's these little things, like having to sit at the back of the bus, that chip away at people's ability to feel like an equal member of society. If you walk or cycle you are under no illusion that you come second to cars. It's little wonder people choose the car if they can.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
> See, for example, dual carriageways. Technically everyone has a right to use them by any means (they have paid for it, after all), but you'd be crazy to walk/cycle down one. I regularly cycle along the dual carriageway part of the A370. Whilst I get that it can be unnerving for most cyclists, dual carriageways are well designed for cycling along as they typically have great visibility (drivers can see you from a distance) and there's a whole lane for drivers to overtake safely. > Fourth notice that every part of the road network is designed to make it easier for cars at the detriment of pedestrians and cyclists. Why does a pedestrian need to press a button to cross the road? Why, upon pressing the button, must the pedestrian wait to cross? Why doesn't the light cycle start immediately? There is absolutely no sense at all in making the pedestrian wait. But everyone is used to it and doesn't question it; it's just the way it is. But what it does is makes being a pedestrian a third class status. It's these little things, like having to sit at the back of the bus, that chip away at people's ability to feel like an equal member of society. If you walk or cycle you are under no illusion that you come second to cars. It's little wonder people choose the car if they can. I think a big part of the problem is that politicians are heavily influenced by car/oil lobbyists. What we need are brave politicians that are forward looking and have a vision. By the way, I like to refer to the pedestrian crossing buttons as "beg buttons".

reddalo 2y ago

Italy has exactly the same problem. Not only we have a horrible infrastructure (the quality of our asphalt is abysmal), but cycle paths are pretty much always shared with pedestrians, and they're filled with obstacles (manholes, poles, chicanes...). Moreover, bike paths are usually built on only one side of the road as a two-way path. It's dangerous for everybody involved, especially when a car has to stop and give way to both sides (spoiler: cars don't do it). Everything makes biking on a bike path a slower and horrible experience, so nobody uses bike paths and then a vicious circle ensues. We should all learn from the Ducth and the Danes.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
Italy is often associated with cycle sport and I believe there are some excellent rides over there, but certainly the cities that I've been to (only Rome and Naples) don't look at all encouraging to cycle around. Naples is almost a perfect example of how to cram in cars into the smallest possible streets and a lot of the streets have to have metal bollards to provide some kind of protection for the pedestrians from the cars and mopeds.
- reddalo 2y ago
  Yes, both Rome and Naples are in the "South" of Italy, and the situation is worse there than in the North. Milan, Ferrara, Bolzano, Modena, Bologna are just some Northern cities where cycling is encouraged and I can see them trying to get a better infrastructure; but unfortunately there's still a long way to go.
nedt 2y ago
That's also the case in other places. The reason is easy. Cycle paths are not build for cyclist, but to them away from the main street and not be an "obstacle" to cars.

Hates_ 2y ago

I was pleasantly surprised to find one of the major London cycle lanes that goes from Tower Bridge to Greenwich gives priority to cyclists crossing side roads https://maps.app.goo.gl/b3SweRqzvNehTcE38 https://maps.app.goo.gl/b3SweRqzvNehTcE38

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

These are death trap bike lanes. Not actually suitable for cycling by an adult operating their vehicle beyond a walking pace.

pkulak 2y ago

It is so adorable when Europeans complain about bike/transit infrastructure. Here’s my bike lane. It’s that white strip of paint on the right there: https://maps.app.goo.gl/HHcHi3u5xbAM4jxY7?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/HHcHi3u5xbAM4jxY7?g_st=ic

asveikau 2y ago
And yet when we have "bike lanes" like this, people complain that it's too much, too intrusive, ruins local business, or should be a parking spot or lane for deliveries.

CrispyKerosene 2y ago

Its interesting how my brain immediately sees the ambiguous bike lane mixed in with pedestrians spaces, and thinks 'That's dangerous', but i am not conditioned to think the same way about bicycles being forced to mix with car traffic, or pedestrians forced onto very narrow sidewalks in the clearzone of roads.