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No we're not. Nobody in the EU has transitioned to a wartime economy. We are helping out a strategic ally. If Ukraine falls tomorrow an cedes add territory to R

No we're not. Nobody in the EU has transitioned to a wartime economy. We are helping out a strategic ally. If Ukraine falls tomorrow an cedes add territory to Russia, the EU is not going to continue fighting, because the war will be over. That of course assumes that Putin stops at Ukraine. The point is that this isn't our war.

K0balt 2y ago
You’re in a zero lot line flat and your neighbors house is on fire. I’d be pretty motivated to help out as well, but I don’t think I’d be quite so cavalier about not being on a wartime footing. Russia has shown repeatedly throughout history that it does not honor international agreements in good faith, and that it sees military adventurism as a legitimate way to expand its borders. After the dust settles on the Ukraine war, if Putin still has the capacity to wage war, he will not likely stop with Ukraine. It is by now obvious that a limited incursion into Poland, for example, will not spark a global thermonuclear war. Ukrainian suffering is both the litmus test and the vaccination against nuclear escalation that Putin needs to contemplate further expansion. Political alignments aside, if I were based in Europe I would be very, very concerned.
- valval 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - concordDance 2y ago
    Even Botswana and Zambia aren't in the same league: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?tab=chart&country=BWA~ZMB~UKR https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...
    - valval 2y ago
      Frankly Botswana is beating Ukraine in GDP and Zambia in perceived corruption.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        Frankly Botswana is beating Ukraine in GDP Ukraine's GDP is close to 10x that of Botswana, and in the last year has grown 10 percent over that of 2022.
        valval 2y ago
        Try GDP per capita PPP, the measure that matters for average living conditions
        aguaviva 2y ago
        When your first attempt at dropping a random statistic gets blown out of the water -- try shifting the goalposts.
        valval 2y ago
        I bet you had to look it up as well. I bet you had to go out there, and confirm that Ukraine, a country with 15x the population of Botswana, does indeed have a higher GDP. To make your discussions easier and less embarrassing in the future, assume that 100 % of the time when someone speaks of GDP, they're speaking of GDP at purchasing power parity per capita.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Assume that 100 % of the time when someone speaks of GDP, they're speaking of GDP at purchasing power parity per capita. And you can assume that 100 % of the time when someone speaks of the size of their gas tank, they're really talking about MPG while in cruise mode.
        valval 2y ago
        I’m serious. Please don’t assume anyone is ever speaking or absolute GDP unless they make it explicitly known. That would be utterly silly.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    This is a wildly unpopular opinion after 2022, but ... False. Ukraine not only has everything to do with Europe -- it is unequivocally European in culture, language, historical involvement and (to the extent that Russia is also considered to be unequivocally European) geography. It isn't something one can even have an opinion about. Any more than one can have an "opinion" about India being a part of Asia.
  - throwawaymaths 2y ago
    Yes, and Ukraine has steadily going down in corruption since Zelenskyy. So if you actually care about corruption and aren't a concern troll, you will want to encourage the current regime and not the reverse.
    - valval 2y ago
      Zelenskyy has stifled opposition and politically persecuted his enemies, actually.
      - K0balt 2y ago
        Your comment is pretty myopic considering the fact that Ukraine is in a state of martial emergency and is actively being invaded by a merciless and lawless regime. She is on a wartime footing, with her very existence as a country once again in jeopardy at the hands of a much more powerful, longtime aggressor. Realigning political positions in a way that keeps them firmly aligned with the martial interests of the state is expected and required. For better or for worse, Ukraines civil government is, for now, primarily a military organization as the country and its people are fighting for their lives. This is the one specific case where it is reasonable, just, and needed to require loyalty, focus, and vigor within an otherwise democratic system. There is a reason why martial law grants the president extraordinary powers. If Ukraine survives, she will have to sort out the return to normal democratic rule, but for now the government is at war.
        valval 2y ago
        Don't worry about that, he's been doing it since his inauguration. If you think his actions played no part in this war coming to be, you've been informed a bit selectively.
        K0balt 2y ago
        Frankly it would be shocking if there wasn’t some kind of fuckery afoot in any given Eastern European nation. But that in no way justifies this territory grab by Russia, or the invasion in 2014. Russia is clearly attempting to annex a neighboring country through military adventurism, and is doing so in contravention with all international law, and also in a way that is intentionally cruel and borderline genocidal. Russia has lost all legitimacy as a nation worthy of being taken seriously as a global citizen, and has reduced itself to a kleptocratic mad-dog rouge state.
jyounker 2y ago
Nine years ago I was in Riga talking with a Latvian friend, and even then she was telling me how Russia was broadcasting separatist propaganda into Latvia While the EU may not be at war with Russia, Russia is already at war with the EU.
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  Russia is pursuing low stakes, plausibly deniable, minor nuisance actions against the EU and U.S. It does enough to fool itself internally that it has a great enemy in The West, to which it is bravely standing up. The purpose of this is to unite enough of the domestic population to suppress dissent and keep the current regime in power. The reality is that it is actually at war with only one small neighbor, which is going so badly that they have had to import troops from North Korea. Embarrassing. If they actually engaged in war with the EU, more specifically a member of NATO, they would lose quickly. So they stay well back from that line.
groby_b 2y ago
Yes, we are. Outside of Poland, everybody's closing their eyes to it, but war is coming. We might be able to stop it before it becomes a hot war, but the ambition is there, the indicators are there, the opportunity is there. Assume it's a war. (Unless you're German. I guess our national sport is now making excuses for Russia)
- K0balt 2y ago
  I grew up in Fairbanks, Alaska, near a strategic Cold War military base. I still remember seeing the TU-95 “bear” bombers flying overhead being escorted and turned around by our fighter jets. It makes it pretty real when 7 year old me is wondering if this one has any nukes on board, and if this will be the day that they drop. Russia is not to be trusted, imho. They do not honor their international commitments in good faith, and they will expand their territorial claims if they are allowed to do so. Europe, like a frog in a pot, is in peril and they need to take steps to make sure that Russian war fighting capabilities are destroyed through exhaustion in Ukraine. This of course is tragic for Ukraine, because it means that she will be utterly razed in the process. But if Russia prevails or backs down with strength, it will happen again. And again. Russias ability to project force in a strategic way must be destroyed. They are not trustworthy stewards of coercive force.
  - nradov 2y ago
    I don't trust Russia either, but are you certain that's a real memory? I'm not aware of any confirmed incidents in which USSR bombers actually flew within sight of Fairbanks. They routinely tested our defenses but they didn't penetrate that far into US airspace.
    - K0balt 2y ago
      I wish I had a photograph. I’ve been told before that this was impossible by others. I’ve also been told by others that were there that yes, it happened. It may not have been , however, an aggressive incursion, I have no way of knowing that part for sure. Having fighters scramble from Eilison was not unusual at all, and when hunting out in that area with my father we saw a few of those. It was pretty distinct from the training and combat training they did, so it wasn’t that hard to distinguish the intentionality and risk tolerance that was reserved for that kind of urgency. Anecdotally, I’m pretty darn sure that I saw a bear flying overhead just a few miles east-southeast of Fairbanks. I watched it be turned by 3 F4 phantoms. I was with my father and a few of his friends, as well as my brother that would have been 13 at the time. Everyone there remembers the event, and it was talked about for days in Fairbanks, we even had a subsequent training the next week in my elementary school on survival in the event of a nuclear attack lol. Perhaps it was some kind of clandestine fuckery, perhaps it was an authorized flight, or perhaps it would have been to embarrassing / inflammatory to make it an event of record? I’m sure the answers are quietly sitting somewhere in a musty filing box.
weweersdfsd 2y ago
The truth is that Russia has been making war preparations for a long time, also within the EU. In Finland even during the "good years" (between fall of the Soviet Union and Georgian war) Russian businessmen kept buying property that made zero financial sense, but was located close to strategic infrastructure or military bases.

K0balt 2y ago

You’re in a zero lot line flat and your neighbors house is on fire. I’d be pretty motivated to help out as well, but I don’t think I’d be quite so cavalier about not being on a wartime footing. Russia has shown repeatedly throughout history that it does not honor international agreements in good faith, and that it sees military adventurism as a legitimate way to expand its borders. After the dust settles on the Ukraine war, if Putin still has the capacity to wage war, he will not likely stop with Ukraine. It is by now obvious that a limited incursion into Poland, for example, will not spark a global thermonuclear war. Ukrainian suffering is both the litmus test and the vaccination against nuclear escalation that Putin needs to contemplate further expansion. Political alignments aside, if I were based in Europe I would be very, very concerned.

valval 2y ago
[flagged]
- concordDance 2y ago
  Even Botswana and Zambia aren't in the same league: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?tab=chart&country=BWA~ZMB~UKR https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...
  - valval 2y ago
    Frankly Botswana is beating Ukraine in GDP and Zambia in perceived corruption.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Frankly Botswana is beating Ukraine in GDP Ukraine's GDP is close to 10x that of Botswana, and in the last year has grown 10 percent over that of 2022.
      - valval 2y ago
        Try GDP per capita PPP, the measure that matters for average living conditions
        aguaviva 2y ago
        When your first attempt at dropping a random statistic gets blown out of the water -- try shifting the goalposts.
        valval 2y ago
        I bet you had to look it up as well. I bet you had to go out there, and confirm that Ukraine, a country with 15x the population of Botswana, does indeed have a higher GDP. To make your discussions easier and less embarrassing in the future, assume that 100 % of the time when someone speaks of GDP, they're speaking of GDP at purchasing power parity per capita.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Assume that 100 % of the time when someone speaks of GDP, they're speaking of GDP at purchasing power parity per capita. And you can assume that 100 % of the time when someone speaks of the size of their gas tank, they're really talking about MPG while in cruise mode.
        valval 2y ago
        I’m serious. Please don’t assume anyone is ever speaking or absolute GDP unless they make it explicitly known. That would be utterly silly.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  This is a wildly unpopular opinion after 2022, but ... False. Ukraine not only has everything to do with Europe -- it is unequivocally European in culture, language, historical involvement and (to the extent that Russia is also considered to be unequivocally European) geography. It isn't something one can even have an opinion about. Any more than one can have an "opinion" about India being a part of Asia.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  Yes, and Ukraine has steadily going down in corruption since Zelenskyy. So if you actually care about corruption and aren't a concern troll, you will want to encourage the current regime and not the reverse.
  - valval 2y ago
    Zelenskyy has stifled opposition and politically persecuted his enemies, actually.
    - K0balt 2y ago
      Your comment is pretty myopic considering the fact that Ukraine is in a state of martial emergency and is actively being invaded by a merciless and lawless regime. She is on a wartime footing, with her very existence as a country once again in jeopardy at the hands of a much more powerful, longtime aggressor. Realigning political positions in a way that keeps them firmly aligned with the martial interests of the state is expected and required. For better or for worse, Ukraines civil government is, for now, primarily a military organization as the country and its people are fighting for their lives. This is the one specific case where it is reasonable, just, and needed to require loyalty, focus, and vigor within an otherwise democratic system. There is a reason why martial law grants the president extraordinary powers. If Ukraine survives, she will have to sort out the return to normal democratic rule, but for now the government is at war.
      - valval 2y ago
        Don't worry about that, he's been doing it since his inauguration. If you think his actions played no part in this war coming to be, you've been informed a bit selectively.
        K0balt 2y ago
        Frankly it would be shocking if there wasn’t some kind of fuckery afoot in any given Eastern European nation. But that in no way justifies this territory grab by Russia, or the invasion in 2014. Russia is clearly attempting to annex a neighboring country through military adventurism, and is doing so in contravention with all international law, and also in a way that is intentionally cruel and borderline genocidal. Russia has lost all legitimacy as a nation worthy of being taken seriously as a global citizen, and has reduced itself to a kleptocratic mad-dog rouge state.

jyounker 2y ago

Nine years ago I was in Riga talking with a Latvian friend, and even then she was telling me how Russia was broadcasting separatist propaganda into Latvia While the EU may not be at war with Russia, Russia is already at war with the EU.

snowwrestler 2y ago
Russia is pursuing low stakes, plausibly deniable, minor nuisance actions against the EU and U.S. It does enough to fool itself internally that it has a great enemy in The West, to which it is bravely standing up. The purpose of this is to unite enough of the domestic population to suppress dissent and keep the current regime in power. The reality is that it is actually at war with only one small neighbor, which is going so badly that they have had to import troops from North Korea. Embarrassing. If they actually engaged in war with the EU, more specifically a member of NATO, they would lose quickly. So they stay well back from that line.

groby_b 2y ago

Yes, we are. Outside of Poland, everybody's closing their eyes to it, but war is coming. We might be able to stop it before it becomes a hot war, but the ambition is there, the indicators are there, the opportunity is there. Assume it's a war. (Unless you're German. I guess our national sport is now making excuses for Russia)

K0balt 2y ago
I grew up in Fairbanks, Alaska, near a strategic Cold War military base. I still remember seeing the TU-95 “bear” bombers flying overhead being escorted and turned around by our fighter jets. It makes it pretty real when 7 year old me is wondering if this one has any nukes on board, and if this will be the day that they drop. Russia is not to be trusted, imho. They do not honor their international commitments in good faith, and they will expand their territorial claims if they are allowed to do so. Europe, like a frog in a pot, is in peril and they need to take steps to make sure that Russian war fighting capabilities are destroyed through exhaustion in Ukraine. This of course is tragic for Ukraine, because it means that she will be utterly razed in the process. But if Russia prevails or backs down with strength, it will happen again. And again. Russias ability to project force in a strategic way must be destroyed. They are not trustworthy stewards of coercive force.
- nradov 2y ago
  I don't trust Russia either, but are you certain that's a real memory? I'm not aware of any confirmed incidents in which USSR bombers actually flew within sight of Fairbanks. They routinely tested our defenses but they didn't penetrate that far into US airspace.
  - K0balt 2y ago
    I wish I had a photograph. I’ve been told before that this was impossible by others. I’ve also been told by others that were there that yes, it happened. It may not have been , however, an aggressive incursion, I have no way of knowing that part for sure. Having fighters scramble from Eilison was not unusual at all, and when hunting out in that area with my father we saw a few of those. It was pretty distinct from the training and combat training they did, so it wasn’t that hard to distinguish the intentionality and risk tolerance that was reserved for that kind of urgency. Anecdotally, I’m pretty darn sure that I saw a bear flying overhead just a few miles east-southeast of Fairbanks. I watched it be turned by 3 F4 phantoms. I was with my father and a few of his friends, as well as my brother that would have been 13 at the time. Everyone there remembers the event, and it was talked about for days in Fairbanks, we even had a subsequent training the next week in my elementary school on survival in the event of a nuclear attack lol. Perhaps it was some kind of clandestine fuckery, perhaps it was an authorized flight, or perhaps it would have been to embarrassing / inflammatory to make it an event of record? I’m sure the answers are quietly sitting somewhere in a musty filing box.

weweersdfsd 2y ago

The truth is that Russia has been making war preparations for a long time, also within the EU. In Finland even during the "good years" (between fall of the Soviet Union and Georgian war) Russian businessmen kept buying property that made zero financial sense, but was located close to strategic infrastructure or military bases.