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Is sexual assault in prison otherwise a particular concern of yours? I understand it's a massive issue affecting hundreds of thousands of incarcerated people, i

Is sexual assault in prison otherwise a particular concern of yours? I understand it's a massive issue affecting hundreds of thousands of incarcerated people, is activism on that broader issue how you came to be aware of this? Do you have a connection to any prisoner advocacy groups that have policy recommendations on this? I assume the sexual violence outcomes for trans women in mens prisons isn't very wonderful either. I can't relate to the comic. like I said I have not really felt personally affected by trans people at all on any level ever.

blessede 2y ago
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- hackable_sand 2y ago
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  - blessede 2y ago
    Thanks for your input but your wild assumptions about what I do and don't take issue with are incorrect.
    - Clubber 2y ago
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- sofixa 2y ago
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  - jl6 2y ago
    > How many instances of trans athletes in female sports have there been? If it’s a small number, then presumably it’s not worth fighting over and sport can just have Open and Female categories?
    - foldr 2y ago
      That's a potential option, but a lot of anti-trans folks wouldn't be happy with that either. It also doesn't solve the theoretical problem of fairness, since trans men on testosterone (who presumably compete in the 'open' category in your model?) might have significant physical advantages over cis women in some sports. I don't think there are any glib solutions to the issue of gender in sport. The current moral panic about trans people certainly won't go any way to help with solving it.
      - fonfont 2y ago
        Female athletes taking testosterone, regardless of if they believe themselves to be men or not, would be excluded from competition for doping.
        foldr 2y ago
        Another layer of complexity to consider. Some of those rules may need to change to enable full participation of trans athletes. I do not have a fixed view on what the rules should be. I'm just saying it's complicated.
        fonfont 2y ago
        Or maybe those that take performance-enhancing drugs will just have to accept that their body modification choices preclude participation in competitive sport. There are trans-identifying female athletes who don't take testosterone and compete in women's sports, recent example in the last Olympics being Hergie Bacyadan in women's boxing. There's no exclusion on participation as long as the same rules as for everyone else are followed.
        foldr 2y ago
        Again, you’re just highlighting the fact that trans people’s bodies are very variable and that this is a complex issue. There isn’t a simple, obvious solution that everyone (currently) agrees is fair. The current rules around trans athletes receiving testosterone as part of gender affirming care are quite complex and variable. I don’t have a take on exactly what the rules should be. I’m just making the point that there are no easy solutions.
  - linhns 2y ago
    > There probably have been more instances of furore over a _potential_ trans athlete who aren't trans Actually, most of those "potential" trans turn out to be actual trans. That college volleyball athlete has even been sued by her own teammate. > It's a "problem" way overblown by anti-trans activists. I get that there are many loud voices on this topic right now. But I rather having this right now then later down the road, where the right has become wrong and the wrong has become right.
    - sofixa 2y ago
      > That college volleyball athlete has even been sued by her own teammate. And there has never been a shred of proof of her being trans. Exactly my point. > et that there are many loud voices on this topic right now. But I rather having this right now then later down the road, where the right has become wrong and the wrong has become right. Yes, better for women with high testosterone to get death threats now for winning in the Olympics instead of thinking if this is really a problem.
      - HideousKojima 2y ago
        [flagged]
        foldr 2y ago
        Her body has both male and female characteristics. If she'd been raised as a man, you could make an equally meanspirited comment about her body with reference to one of its female characteristics. The fact that she was raised as a woman in Algeria (a notorious hotbed of wokeness) should tell you something. Also, while it is gross to pick over people's bodies like this, I have to point out that you omit to note that her testicles are internal.
        fiffled 2y ago
        [flagged]
  - nradov 2y ago
    You can find a list of trans athletes in women's sports here. I can't vouch for the site's accuracy or completeness, just providing a source for those who want to do further research. https://www.shewon.org/ https://www.shewon.org/
    - sofixa 2y ago
      The inclusion of golf and poker makes me think this website isn't really concerned about women.
      - fonfont 2y ago
        These are still examples of males imposing themselves on what are supposed to be women's competitions. Every single one of these cases highlights an unwanted male intrusion.
        HideousKojima 2y ago
        Also, given that biological males dominate even for non-physical sports and esports like chess (talented women like Judit Polgar notwithstanding) or Starcraft, a biological male playing in a woman's-only league is a probably an unfair advantage even then.
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        I don’t really have a strong opinion one way or the other about your overall point, but I just want to point out for clarity: Examples like Judit Polgar (who was around the top 10 players in the world at her peak) do indeed prove that chess is nothing like (physical) sports in this way. In physical sports like basketball, soccer, etc. the best women in the world can’t compete against even moderately athletic amateur men. A famous example is the fact that the US women’s national soccer team practices against young teenage boys (and routinely loses). In chess it would be like if the best woman was rated 1800 or something. This isn’t meant to disparage women in sports — they really do have a categorically different kind of body from men, and pushing those bodies to their limits is just as impressive as it is for men. But they don’t appear to have categorically different kinds of brain, at least insofar as it matters for chess skill.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  So what do the prisoner advocate orgs you work with have as a statement or policy rec? The one I volunteer with has decided that it's not effective to have a specific policy about such a small group until meaningful measures addressing sexual violence in prisons generally (which again affects hundreds of thousands or millions per year) have been attempted. There are a lot of other orgs though and especially if you're in an area with a lot of trans people and it's a more active issue, I'm interested in what other groups have had to come up with. Like I said if the goal is preventing sexual violence I can't imagine that moving trans women into the mens prison is going to be effective either.

blessede 2y ago

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hackable_sand 2y ago
[flagged]
- blessede 2y ago
  Thanks for your input but your wild assumptions about what I do and don't take issue with are incorrect.
  - Clubber 2y ago
    [flagged]
sofixa 2y ago
[flagged]
- jl6 2y ago
  > How many instances of trans athletes in female sports have there been? If it’s a small number, then presumably it’s not worth fighting over and sport can just have Open and Female categories?
  - foldr 2y ago
    That's a potential option, but a lot of anti-trans folks wouldn't be happy with that either. It also doesn't solve the theoretical problem of fairness, since trans men on testosterone (who presumably compete in the 'open' category in your model?) might have significant physical advantages over cis women in some sports. I don't think there are any glib solutions to the issue of gender in sport. The current moral panic about trans people certainly won't go any way to help with solving it.
    - fonfont 2y ago
      Female athletes taking testosterone, regardless of if they believe themselves to be men or not, would be excluded from competition for doping.
      - foldr 2y ago
        Another layer of complexity to consider. Some of those rules may need to change to enable full participation of trans athletes. I do not have a fixed view on what the rules should be. I'm just saying it's complicated.
        fonfont 2y ago
        Or maybe those that take performance-enhancing drugs will just have to accept that their body modification choices preclude participation in competitive sport. There are trans-identifying female athletes who don't take testosterone and compete in women's sports, recent example in the last Olympics being Hergie Bacyadan in women's boxing. There's no exclusion on participation as long as the same rules as for everyone else are followed.
        foldr 2y ago
        Again, you’re just highlighting the fact that trans people’s bodies are very variable and that this is a complex issue. There isn’t a simple, obvious solution that everyone (currently) agrees is fair. The current rules around trans athletes receiving testosterone as part of gender affirming care are quite complex and variable. I don’t have a take on exactly what the rules should be. I’m just making the point that there are no easy solutions.
- linhns 2y ago
  > There probably have been more instances of furore over a _potential_ trans athlete who aren't trans Actually, most of those "potential" trans turn out to be actual trans. That college volleyball athlete has even been sued by her own teammate. > It's a "problem" way overblown by anti-trans activists. I get that there are many loud voices on this topic right now. But I rather having this right now then later down the road, where the right has become wrong and the wrong has become right.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > That college volleyball athlete has even been sued by her own teammate. And there has never been a shred of proof of her being trans. Exactly my point. > et that there are many loud voices on this topic right now. But I rather having this right now then later down the road, where the right has become wrong and the wrong has become right. Yes, better for women with high testosterone to get death threats now for winning in the Olympics instead of thinking if this is really a problem.
    - HideousKojima 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - foldr 2y ago
        Her body has both male and female characteristics. If she'd been raised as a man, you could make an equally meanspirited comment about her body with reference to one of its female characteristics. The fact that she was raised as a woman in Algeria (a notorious hotbed of wokeness) should tell you something. Also, while it is gross to pick over people's bodies like this, I have to point out that you omit to note that her testicles are internal.
        fiffled 2y ago
        [flagged]
- nradov 2y ago
  You can find a list of trans athletes in women's sports here. I can't vouch for the site's accuracy or completeness, just providing a source for those who want to do further research. https://www.shewon.org/ https://www.shewon.org/
  - sofixa 2y ago
    The inclusion of golf and poker makes me think this website isn't really concerned about women.
    - fonfont 2y ago
      These are still examples of males imposing themselves on what are supposed to be women's competitions. Every single one of these cases highlights an unwanted male intrusion.
      - HideousKojima 2y ago
        Also, given that biological males dominate even for non-physical sports and esports like chess (talented women like Judit Polgar notwithstanding) or Starcraft, a biological male playing in a woman's-only league is a probably an unfair advantage even then.
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        I don’t really have a strong opinion one way or the other about your overall point, but I just want to point out for clarity: Examples like Judit Polgar (who was around the top 10 players in the world at her peak) do indeed prove that chess is nothing like (physical) sports in this way. In physical sports like basketball, soccer, etc. the best women in the world can’t compete against even moderately athletic amateur men. A famous example is the fact that the US women’s national soccer team practices against young teenage boys (and routinely loses). In chess it would be like if the best woman was rated 1800 or something. This isn’t meant to disparage women in sports — they really do have a categorically different kind of body from men, and pushing those bodies to their limits is just as impressive as it is for men. But they don’t appear to have categorically different kinds of brain, at least insofar as it matters for chess skill.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
So what do the prisoner advocate orgs you work with have as a statement or policy rec? The one I volunteer with has decided that it's not effective to have a specific policy about such a small group until meaningful measures addressing sexual violence in prisons generally (which again affects hundreds of thousands or millions per year) have been attempted. There are a lot of other orgs though and especially if you're in an area with a lot of trans people and it's a more active issue, I'm interested in what other groups have had to come up with. Like I said if the goal is preventing sexual violence I can't imagine that moving trans women into the mens prison is going to be effective either.