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> And I thought I recognized the name. I really do not understand how trans debate has come to dominate some online discourse. Much of it is pushback against w
by blessede 2y ago
> And I thought I recognized the name. I really do not understand how trans debate has come to dominate some online discourse.
Much of it is pushback against widespread ideological capture, and in particular the authoritarian idea that everyone else has to change and restrict their behavior to accommodate increasingly absurd and harmful requests from an overly demanding identity group.
- giraffe_lady 2y agoWhat is the group demanding that is "over" what you would consider appropriate? How do their demands restrict your behavior? Personally I've never noticed trans people and their push for rights & recognition having any impact on my life whatsoever. And I say this as a devout member of a rigorous and conservative religious tradition.
- blessede 2y agoMany demands, but probably the most egregious is the insistence that males be incarcerated in women's prisons if they say they are women. Several states now have policy that enables this, and female prisoners have been sexually assaulted, raped and even impregnated as a result of this. More generally, this graphic has an astute depiction of the problem: https://i.ibb.co/ZcMWLvM/no.jpg https://i.ibb.co/ZcMWLvM/no.jpg
- giraffe_lady 2y agoIs sexual assault in prison otherwise a particular concern of yours? I understand it's a massive issue affecting hundreds of thousands of incarcerated people, is activism on that broader issue how you came to be aware of this? Do you have a connection to any prisoner advocacy groups that have policy recommendations on this? I assume the sexual violence outcomes for trans women in mens prisons isn't very wonderful either. I can't relate to the comic. like I said I have not really felt personally affected by trans people at all on any level ever.
- blessede 2y ago[flagged]
- hackable_sand 2y ago[flagged]
- sofixa 2y ago[flagged]
- jl6 2y ago> How many instances of trans athletes in female sports have there been? If it’s a small number, then presumably it’s not worth fighting over and sport can just have Open and Female categories?
- foldr 2y agoThat's a potential option, but a lot of anti-trans folks wouldn't be happy with that either. It also doesn't solve the theoretical problem of fairness, since trans men on testosterone (who presumably compete in the 'open' category in your model?) might have significant physical advantages over cis women in some sports. I don't think there are any glib solutions to the issue of gender in sport. The current moral panic about trans people certainly won't go any way to help with solving it.
- mrguyorama 2y ago"This graphic (an image macro) has an astute depiction" The actual graphic: "Lesbians must have sex with me!" Get the fuck out of here. This is nonsense.
- tiahura 2y agoDoes your daughter play competitive sports? Has she been knocked down by a boy playing on a girl’s team?
- dgfitz 2y agoNah that isn’t the problem. If that happened to my kid they would get back up and shove the other kid over. The problem is maintaining the integrity of sports and competition. Only an uneducated person would ever try to argue that “the best women’s college basketball team would beat the best men’s college basketball team” even 1 out of 100 times.
- tiahura 2y agomy kid they would get back up and shove the other kid over. Therein lies the rub. Some sure do, but most 13 year old girls don’t.
- spamizbad 2y agoas a parent of a child athlete this is always a silly argument. Kids in sports get knocked down all the time! Sometimes pretty hard! I feel like people who clutch their pearls on this stuff either don’t have kids, don’t have kids in sports, or aren’t the parent who actually shows up to the games.
- wtcactus 2y ago> Personally I've never noticed trans people and their push for rights & recognition having any impact on my life whatsoever. Do you have young children? I don’t live in the USA, I live in Europe, but I have a very small baby and I already did. The daycare, just this year announced they aren’t going to be celebrating Mother and Father’s Day anymore. Instead we will have to celebrate a Parents day. This is just a small thing of course, there are many other situations where it’s clear an agenda is being pushed over the general population. The only way I can see you never felt it, is if you don’t have children.
- gjm11 2y agoDo you actually know that switching from "Mother's Day" and "Father's Day" to "Parents' Day" has anything to do with trans people? Without the context of your comment I would have guessed it was more about (1) trying not to upset children who have lost a parent, (2) trying not to upset or confuse children who've never had two parents around, and/or (3) trying not to upset or confuse children brought up by same-sex couples. Of course you might consider any or all of those to be Stupid Woke Nonsense, but whether right or wrong, sensible or stupid, they're not about trans people.
- hobs 2y agoAnd would you say that "everyone else has to change and restrict their behavior to accommodate increasingly absurd and harmful requests from an overly demanding identity group" and that a parents day has harmed you? As a person entirely out of the "trans debate" it almost always seems to me like right wingers or anyone who is asked to change anything at all catastrophizes it beyond all sane response. The mild "huh that slightly bothers me" and the "they are TRYING TO CHANGE MY CHILDREN!!!" seem to be conflated to the point of making no sense. Going from "I noticed a trans person" to "this must be stopped!" makes no sense whatsoever.
- immibis 2y agoWhat does that have to do with transgender mothers and transgender fathers?
- specialist 2y ago
- HideousKojima 2y ago[flagged]
- blindriver 2y ago[flagged]
- giraffe_lady 2y agoWhat's the gender of someone born with XX chromosomes, two ovaries, a penis, and develops male secondary sex characteristics like a beard? Intersex variants are 1% of the population, it's as common as red hair. The strict gender binary is the anti-science view I'm sorry to say. And again I say this as someone who is a member of a rigorous religious tradition that does not have any real flexibility about this. Nonetheless I've had to come to accept it because, as you say, the science.
- kgwgk 2y ago> Intersex variants are 1% of the population Only if you use some definition of “intersex” that has nothing to do with the “two ovaries and a penis” you mentioned before. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224490209552139 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0022449020955213...
- aspenth 2y ago> What's the gender of someone born with XX chromosomes, two ovaries, a penis, and develops male secondary sex characteristics like a beard? Did you just make this up or did you have a specific disorder of sexual development in mind? Presence of two ovaries suggests it's a female DSD anyhow. > Intersex variants are 1% of the population, it's as common as red hair. This figure is controversial and includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. The true prevalence is more likely between 0.01% and 0.02%. The trans discussion is separate to this anyway, as it involves individuals without any DSDs who demand that others treat them as if they were the opposite sex.
- giraffe_lady 2y agoYeah it's approximately as hypothetical as all the cases of trans athletes we're apparently taking seriously in this thread. Eg greater than zero known cases but likely no one commenting here has ever encountered either phenomenon in the course of life.
- ryandv 2y agoOn a personal level, linguistic imperialism. For all the rhetoric spewed regarding the impacts of colonialism and cultural imperialism and fervent calls to decolonize various aspects of society, the whites spewing that very same rhetoric have found a way to launder their own modern brand of imperialism into gender diversity and inclusivity by inventing and then imposing new language on that of other ethnic minorities: "Filipinx." This word shows a shocking ignorance of basic facts of Tagalog that it can't be construed in any way other than racist: there is no letter "x" in Tagalog, and the grammar of the language is already genderless. This point becomes readily apparent if you are conversing with a native Tagalog speaker who uses English as a second language, as they will readily confuse the pronouns "he" and "she" in everyday speech, the concept of gendered pronouns being, quite literally, foreign to them. Is this transphobic bigotry? The Philippines has already undergone multiple rounds of colonization over centuries, leading to the slow-motion eradication of their native language as Spanish and especially English have overtaken it to the point where many Filipinos cannot even speak pure Tagalog any more [0]. Hasn't the western white already colonized the Philippines enough? First it was, "your pagan religion is immoral and barbaric; here, read this Bible." Now, it's, "your transphobic language is bigoted and uninclusive; here, take these pronouns." How about obeying Starfleet's Prime Directive by leaving other cultures the fuck alone? If you don't find this top-down imposition and control of language disturbing, I suggest you review your Orwell. On a more abstract level, "the group's" intolerance of dissenting opinion and academic inquiry, especially when such inquiry shows its positions to be internally contradictory. Take for instance Rebecca Tuvel's paper In Defense of Transracialism, published in Hypatia: A Journal of Feminist Philosophy, which argues that "considerations that support transgenderism seem to apply equally to transracialism." [1] Rather than judge this assertion on its merits and attempt to defeat it rationally, the community demanded the paper be retracted, the author was pilloried for her hateful language and dangerous ideas, and there were multiple departures from Hypatia's editorial team. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLFoUTJuGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLFoUTJuGU [1] https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/hypa.12327 https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/hypa.12327
- giraffe_lady 2y agoI don't see the connection between tagalog and trans people sorry.
- blueflow 2y agoI want to live my way outside of superficial constructs like gender. I do not want to be forced to accommodate people who think that gender identity is something relevant. The current political climate sucks for agender people.
- yamazakiwi 2y agoI want to live my life outside of superficial constructs like religions. I do not want to be forced to accommodate people who believe religion is relevant. The current political climate is challenging for areligious people. I don't get to have this opinion because conservatives are censoring me and are always shoving religion down my throat. Imitating conservative argument style is fun, you get to tell how you feel but then still get defensive when people say you hate other people based on their identity.
- blueflow 2y agoI think you are being sarcastic but i actually agree with that.
- yamazakiwi 2y agoI'm being sarcastic but also agree.
- dogleash 2y agoI'm pulling for you. However. Cultural attitudes are propagated by people who's livelihood is frequent publishing. In that scenario, I think teams "what's to talk about?" and "it's not that complicated" are always going to lose to team "I've got a lot to say about this."
- amanaplanacanal 2y agoThere is a thing I've noticed. Some percentage of people do not strongly identify with any particular gender. I was assigned male at birth, I look stereotypically male, everyone assume I'm male and addresses me as such, but honestly, I don't care one way or the other and if I was female instead I doubt I would care. Let's say 50% fall here. Another group of people strongly identified with one gender or the other, and can't imagine it being any other way. These people care deeply about gender because it is an important part of their identity. Let's say the other 50% fall here. Most of them are happy because they present as the gender they feel they are, and everyone treats them as such. In a small percentage, there is a mismatch and it makes their life hell. I suspect the typical mind fallacy makes it very hard for most people to understand those that fall into the other group. And for those that are in the "happy with their gender" group to understand those in the "unhappy with their gender" group.
- lotsofpulp 2y agoThe operators and customers of this spa noticed: https://x.com/KatieDaviscourt/status/1858611351901663550 https://x.com/KatieDaviscourt/status/1858611351901663550 https://x.com/ItsYonder/status/1858673181315506307 https://x.com/ItsYonder/status/1858673181315506307
- giraffe_lady 2y agoYeah that judge, a woman, explicitly labels that "notice" as discriminatory. Seems pretty clear cut.
- lotsofpulp 2y agoJudges are not infallible, and the judge being a woman is irrelevant since she does not represent all women. I think it is reasonable for a woman to want a shared nude space to be free of people with penises, regardless of what that person identifies as, for simple logistics reasons of not being able to be sure if someone is being deceptive.
- blindriver 2y ago[flagged]
- rurp 2y agoSpeaking for myself, in terms of policy this issue wouldn't even crack my top 100. But in terms of electoral politics? I think the evidence is pretty good that it had a lot of salience in the last election. Many swing voters who broke for Trump have said that gender and/or trans issues were a big factor for them. Something like a third of Trump's closing ads were about this topic and Kamala's campaign checking a box that they were in favor of sex change operations for criminals became a huge talking point. As someone who cares deeply about a lot of separate issues that Trump will be terrible on, I wish progressives would STFU on this topic and stop stabbing their party in the back. Treating trans people with dignity and respect should go without saying, but some of the left wing rhetoric on this issues goes too far like when they deny that there is any biological difference between men and women. A lot of the efforts on the left look more like virtue signaling and fighting for the sake of it, rather than trying to achieve better real world outcomes.
- utbabya 2y agoTo address "over", here's my perspective. The invisible force is much stronger than any explicit demands. Would you agree sociopolitically trans transformed from the underdogs to a politically correct blessed identity group at least in the western world in the last 10 years or so? I was more supportive of their rights when they were the underdogs. Being on the side of the eggs instead of the high wall is second nature for lots of people so I'd guess there are significant number of people going through the same transition. Ultimately they're the minority though. A specific example is pronouns. Majority of the population is perfectly happy with gender based pronouns, making it sociopolitically disadvantaged or uncomfortable to use them freely is not in the best interest of the majority. It's always about compromise when we're talking about not stepping on each others feet, and number dictates the power, that's fundamental to democracy. Their demand in general turned from having dignity and freedom to love - say legal marriage, slowly into not being offended - say pronouns. Not being offended is a privilege not a right, particularly so when it makes overwhelmingly majority of the population feel like walking on egg shells, can't say it is what it is, aka censorship. IMHO, being a minority in the western society myself, it's much smarter and considerate for others to stop focusing on identiy politics when you have comparable sociopolitical rights and status to everyone else, which is a spectrum not a line. The problem is they (or a vocal minority within that minority) keep pushing when they're well pass that spectrum. IMO stop the pride parade in western society because they are just one of us, the differences have already been well acknowledged and accepted, so instead of sexual preferences or gender identity which they differ from the majority, how about holding a parade that is about some common grounds. Just stop talking about it, when or if systemic unjust creeps back in, find evidence and fight for it again.
- immibis 2y agoYou mean... abortion bans?