4 ms·

While I agree with the fundamental point, I find that a kind of ironic choice of examples. I wonder what kind of person attaches so much value to keeping kids i

by lmm 2y ago

While I agree with the fundamental point, I find that a kind of ironic choice of examples. I wonder what kind of person attaches so much value to keeping kids in school whether it's good for them or not.

readthenotes1 2y ago
Or masking kids when it's actively harmful to them?
cpursley 2y ago
I think most reasonable and quite frankly, honest, people understood now and then, that taking the kids out of school would fuck them up pretty bad. When the actual science was suggesting we take care of the medically vulnerable and elderly. But hey, there’s an election to win!
- tzs 2y ago
  Who do you think closed schools in order to try to get an electoral advantage?
rayiner 2y ago
It was well established before COVID that missing in-school days has a major adverse effect on learning. Keeping kids out of school had exactly the predicted effect—reading and math scores fell significantly: https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/news/24/01/despite-progress-achievement-gaps-persist-during-recovery-pandemic https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/news/24/01/despite-progres.... We also knew early on that COVID posed little risk to kids themselves. So it was entirely rational for parents, especially of young children, to value keeping those kids in school over the negligible health risks (to the kids) of COVID exposure.
- lmm 2y ago
  Fewer days in school reducing test scores is very much expected. Going from that to claiming an adverse effect on learning, much less an overall harm, is quite a leap.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Test scores accurately measure learning. That’s one of the most robustly supported facts in all of education, and something virtually nobody in Asia or Europe disagrees with.
    - davorak 2y ago
      > Test scores accurately measure learning. I think you claim to much here. Or are using odd definitions, to me at least. Sure you can extract something about what has been learned with properly made tests administered correctly. It is the tool that is used because it is the tool we have, not because it 'measures learning' in all the ways we want to measure.
    - stefan_ 2y ago
      Which is why reorganizing all school systems around teaching the standardized test and judging teachers by these results has been such an overwhelming success that "virtually nobody [..] disagrees with".
      - School-Cotton 2y ago
        The US has probably the least test-focused education system in the developed world (you don’t need to take any exam to graduate high school except in some cases an extremely easy one as a formality). Would you claim the US education system is better than the UK, France or Germany?
        lmm 2y ago
        The fact that we even have year-by-year, grade-by-grade test figures for the US implies it's significantly more test-focused than the UK, where those tests simply don't exist for most grades.
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        Whether you get any qualification at all in the UK is entirely determined by high-stakes standardized tests, at least on the main academic track (GCSE and A levels)
- jhedwards 2y ago
  The point (as I understand it) was not to protect the kids themselves from covid, but that kids are active vectors of illness: they get sick easily and rapidly spread it to everyone around them. Sending kids to school during a pandemic is basically asking to fast-track that sickness to everyone in the community.
  - nradov 2y ago
    There was never any scientific basis for that belief. It was just made up without conducting experiments. And if fact we saw that some countries like Sweden kept primary schools open throughout the pandemic (without mask mandates) and it was fine.
    - gamerdonkey 2y ago
      > There was never any scientific basis for that belief. This is an incorrect statement that can be fixed with minutes of research. https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.0610941104 https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.0610941104 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091674905025923 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00916... One might argue about the quality of the research or point out contradicting studies, but saying there was zero basis is flat-out false. Adding that the idea was "made up" is a great example of bending the idea of science to prop up a point.
      - mike_hearn 2y ago
        COVID is not the Spanish Flu or asthma. Rayiner's point was about SARS-CoV-2 and he is correct. You can read papers published in 2020 to see.
        willy_k 2y ago
        And COVID and the Spanish Flu essentially targeted opposite populations, the former being dangerous to those with compromised immune function while the latter turned strong immune systems against the body in a “cytokine storm”.
- Elinvynia 2y ago
  I'm sure the brain damage that COVID still causes (there are 3x more cases this year than in 2020, fun fact) is more of a danger to kids than staying home.

by lmm 2y ago

readthenotes1 2y ago

Or masking kids when it's actively harmful to them?

cpursley 2y ago

I think most reasonable and quite frankly, honest, people understood now and then, that taking the kids out of school would fuck them up pretty bad. When the actual science was suggesting we take care of the medically vulnerable and elderly. But hey, there’s an election to win!

tzs 2y ago
Who do you think closed schools in order to try to get an electoral advantage?

rayiner 2y ago

It was well established before COVID that missing in-school days has a major adverse effect on learning. Keeping kids out of school had exactly the predicted effect—reading and math scores fell significantly: https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/news/24/01/despite-progress-achievement-gaps-persist-during-recovery-pandemic https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/news/24/01/despite-progres.... We also knew early on that COVID posed little risk to kids themselves. So it was entirely rational for parents, especially of young children, to value keeping those kids in school over the negligible health risks (to the kids) of COVID exposure.

lmm 2y ago
Fewer days in school reducing test scores is very much expected. Going from that to claiming an adverse effect on learning, much less an overall harm, is quite a leap.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Test scores accurately measure learning. That’s one of the most robustly supported facts in all of education, and something virtually nobody in Asia or Europe disagrees with.
  - davorak 2y ago
    > Test scores accurately measure learning. I think you claim to much here. Or are using odd definitions, to me at least. Sure you can extract something about what has been learned with properly made tests administered correctly. It is the tool that is used because it is the tool we have, not because it 'measures learning' in all the ways we want to measure.
  - stefan_ 2y ago
    Which is why reorganizing all school systems around teaching the standardized test and judging teachers by these results has been such an overwhelming success that "virtually nobody [..] disagrees with".
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      The US has probably the least test-focused education system in the developed world (you don’t need to take any exam to graduate high school except in some cases an extremely easy one as a formality). Would you claim the US education system is better than the UK, France or Germany?
      - lmm 2y ago
        The fact that we even have year-by-year, grade-by-grade test figures for the US implies it's significantly more test-focused than the UK, where those tests simply don't exist for most grades.
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        Whether you get any qualification at all in the UK is entirely determined by high-stakes standardized tests, at least on the main academic track (GCSE and A levels)
jhedwards 2y ago
The point (as I understand it) was not to protect the kids themselves from covid, but that kids are active vectors of illness: they get sick easily and rapidly spread it to everyone around them. Sending kids to school during a pandemic is basically asking to fast-track that sickness to everyone in the community.
- nradov 2y ago
  There was never any scientific basis for that belief. It was just made up without conducting experiments. And if fact we saw that some countries like Sweden kept primary schools open throughout the pandemic (without mask mandates) and it was fine.
  - gamerdonkey 2y ago
    > There was never any scientific basis for that belief. This is an incorrect statement that can be fixed with minutes of research. https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.0610941104 https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.0610941104 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091674905025923 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00916... One might argue about the quality of the research or point out contradicting studies, but saying there was zero basis is flat-out false. Adding that the idea was "made up" is a great example of bending the idea of science to prop up a point.
    - mike_hearn 2y ago
      COVID is not the Spanish Flu or asthma. Rayiner's point was about SARS-CoV-2 and he is correct. You can read papers published in 2020 to see.
      - willy_k 2y ago
        And COVID and the Spanish Flu essentially targeted opposite populations, the former being dangerous to those with compromised immune function while the latter turned strong immune systems against the body in a “cytokine storm”.
Elinvynia 2y ago
I'm sure the brain damage that COVID still causes (there are 3x more cases this year than in 2020, fun fact) is more of a danger to kids than staying home.