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13th largest backed by the whole NATO and other US-aligned countries. They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons, the most cutting edge mil

by fuoqi 2y ago

13th largest backed by the whole NATO and other US-aligned countries. They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons, the most cutting edge military tech, and people (well, outside of a limited contingent of "advisors"). Let's be honest, without this backing the war would've ended in the first month as was drafted in Istanbul.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Let's be honest, without this backing the war would've ended in the first month as was drafted in Istanbul The West didn't really help Ukraine in the first month [1]. We thought the Russian army was competent and would ride into Ukraine like we did in Iraq. It wasn't until after the weakness was made apparent that aid started dripping in. Ukraine repelled a Russian invasion on its own. Our generations-old anti-air systems are downing their latest weapons. Meanwhile, our generations-old missiles are taking out their state-of-the-art systems. To the degree Russia has been able to claim any victory, it's in not being demolished. That's the standard. Not winning. Simply surviving. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain...
- fuoqi 2y ago
  The West was actively supplying Ukraine since 2014, especially after the Debaltsevo embarrassment. Yes, it pales in comparison to the post 2022 levels, but it still was far from insignificant. Even your Wikipedia link lists a lot of pre-2022 aid and I am pretty sure this page is far from being comprehensive. And it's even without mentioning the direct role of Boris Johnson in tanking the Istanbul accords.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > it still was far from insignificant Stil far from closing the gap between the 6th and 13th largest armies. Russia invaded an inferior force and got stymied. This would be like America's Vietnam being Cuba, where we fully committed the U.S. military and economy to the task and still continued to fail. The fact that Russia has never even established air superiority knocks it out of the category of running a modern military.
    - fuoqi 2y ago
      The Russian military doctrine is quite different from the US one. It places far more importance on artillery and anti-air forces than on air superiority. The Russian army clearly sucks at maneuver warfare and together with the unrealistically optimistic views which were prevalent in the Russian government (read Putin), it explains perfectly well the extremely poor performance in the first months. The performance in the recent months shows results of a more "comfortable" for the Russian army mode of warfare. Also note that the Russian army was not "fully committed", it was not using conscripts (there was a small scale deployment of conscripts, but after the public scandal they were quickly removed from Ukraine) and did not fully pull forces from all its military districts. Meanwhile Ukraine was fighting in the total war mode from the first days (they do not pull "recruits" from streets in the broad daylight into military buses just for the fun of it) with huge external support. And having the well trained by the West ideologically charged army backbone with 8 years of practical warfare experience has helped immensely in the first months.
      - Wytwwww 2y ago
        > Meanwhile Ukraine was fighting in the total war mode from the first days (they do not pull "recruits" from streets in the broad daylight into military buses just for the fun of it) with huge external support Did they do that during the first few months of the war? I recall them having more volunteers than they could use in the early days.
    - geniusplanmate 2y ago
      At the moment, Russia has fully conquered (and integrated into their nation) 20% of the largest country in Europe. They seem intent on going for about 50% of it. US cannot claim a single victory in the past 4 decades, it's been debacle after debacle.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > US cannot claim a single victory in the past 4 decades, it's been debacle after debacle Militarily? You've got to be joking. Russia is still struggling with the military part of the campaign. Russia's "top of the line" weapons are routinely being potted by decades-old NATO kit. They are a spent force, conventionally. The military turned from a fighting force into a propaganda tool, aimed at projecting masculinity to a domestic audience over maintaining martial capability. The problem in the West is there are a lot of Soviet-era talking heads who make money when Russia gets attention. There is no money to be made if Russia is a loser. So it's in the interest of that foreign policy wing to trump up Moscow as if it's a competent military versus the dumpster fire that it is without Pyongyang and Tehran.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    The direct role of Boris Johnson in tanking the Istanbul accords. Which is a myth - oft repeated, but with precisely zero substance. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41813032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41813032
    - fuoqi 2y ago
      Zero substance? It was reported by Ukrainska Pravda (and Ukraine is far from being famous for its freedom of press) not by some Russian propaganda outlet. It's the same as saying that WSJ citing "sources" has zero substance. Regardless, you can believe that the West did not provide any assurance to Ukraine during the Istanbul talks and that Russia has blown its own pipeline. It's your right.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        It was reported by Ukrainska Pravda It was speculated as a possibility by that article, but then it was looked into by others, quite thoroughly, and the narrative fell apart. That happens, you know. The Foreign Affairs article in the aforementioned thread has a pretty good writeup about the whole thing, if you are interested. You can believe that Russia has blown its own pipeline You can change the subject as many times as you want, and speculate, falsely, about what you think other people believe about random topics, all day long if you want. But this has absolutely no bearing on what we were just talking about.
  - Wytwwww 2y ago
    > supplying Ukraine since 2014 You are moving the goalposts, though. Support between 2014 and 2022 wasn't even remotely close to: > They send almost everything they can outside Also even now they aren't exactly sending everything they can, rather everything they want to.
libertine 2y ago
> They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons Equipment from the 1980s, 1990s, and early 2000s isn't "almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons." But you're 100% right, Ukraine should have received more, especially because we asked them to surrender their nuclear deterrence. There is still a lot of equipment Ukraine could use, like long-range cruise missiles would help them a lot to stop from being attacked by Russia long-range cruise missiles.
GJim 2y ago
> They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons We are doing no such thing. Unfortunately.
josefresco 2y ago
> They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons Oh come on now, you know this isn't true. The US and it's allies have a mountain of military tech they haven't sent for a variety of good and bad reasons. Ukraine regularly begs for more and better weapons, if they were "sent almost everything" would they be begging for more?
mrguyorama 2y ago
>They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons, the most cutting edge military tech, and people (well, outside of a limited contingent of "advisors") We sent a couple hundred tanks, out of 8k. We sent a couple hundred Bradleys, out of 6k. We sent literally expiring missiles. We sent the tanks missing it's best armor, because we are squeamish about giving away uranium I guess. We sent a few extremely dated F16s, instead of the thousand F35s we have. One of the main ways things were donated to Ukraine was former Soviet powers donating their old trash and getting IOUs from NATO to replace it. With this sample platter of western equipment, Ukraine has dragged a supposed bear to its knees. With this smattering of 80s vintage, anti-soviet equipment, Ukraine has forced Russia to massively draw down their old soviet inheritance to replace the 2500 Russian tanks lost (plus several hundred essentially donated to Ukraine a couple years ago) and 1000 AFVs destroyed, and nearly 4000 IFVs destroyed. Like it's not some bombastic victory of course because both sides are so short on equipment that it's basically 1 million men vs 1 million men, and Russia CAN build artillery shells in quantity, so they are advancing at a snails pace in some areas. But the insane ROI on vintage NATO equipment is hilarious. The Soviets were always afraid of the West invading them, and it appears their opinion was accurate, they would have had a very very bad time. We built this stuff to mulch soviet equipment, and boy were we good at that. The Patriot is old enough to have been embarrassed during the first gulf war by a SCUD missile. HIMARS/ATACMS is even older. The tanks and Bradleys we sent are the scraps that didn't get upgraded after Desert Storm.

by fuoqi 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Let's be honest, without this backing the war would've ended in the first month as was drafted in Istanbul The West didn't really help Ukraine in the first month [1]. We thought the Russian army was competent and would ride into Ukraine like we did in Iraq. It wasn't until after the weakness was made apparent that aid started dripping in. Ukraine repelled a Russian invasion on its own. Our generations-old anti-air systems are downing their latest weapons. Meanwhile, our generations-old missiles are taking out their state-of-the-art systems. To the degree Russia has been able to claim any victory, it's in not being demolished. That's the standard. Not winning. Simply surviving. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain...

fuoqi 2y ago
The West was actively supplying Ukraine since 2014, especially after the Debaltsevo embarrassment. Yes, it pales in comparison to the post 2022 levels, but it still was far from insignificant. Even your Wikipedia link lists a lot of pre-2022 aid and I am pretty sure this page is far from being comprehensive. And it's even without mentioning the direct role of Boris Johnson in tanking the Istanbul accords.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > it still was far from insignificant Stil far from closing the gap between the 6th and 13th largest armies. Russia invaded an inferior force and got stymied. This would be like America's Vietnam being Cuba, where we fully committed the U.S. military and economy to the task and still continued to fail. The fact that Russia has never even established air superiority knocks it out of the category of running a modern military.
  - fuoqi 2y ago
    The Russian military doctrine is quite different from the US one. It places far more importance on artillery and anti-air forces than on air superiority. The Russian army clearly sucks at maneuver warfare and together with the unrealistically optimistic views which were prevalent in the Russian government (read Putin), it explains perfectly well the extremely poor performance in the first months. The performance in the recent months shows results of a more "comfortable" for the Russian army mode of warfare. Also note that the Russian army was not "fully committed", it was not using conscripts (there was a small scale deployment of conscripts, but after the public scandal they were quickly removed from Ukraine) and did not fully pull forces from all its military districts. Meanwhile Ukraine was fighting in the total war mode from the first days (they do not pull "recruits" from streets in the broad daylight into military buses just for the fun of it) with huge external support. And having the well trained by the West ideologically charged army backbone with 8 years of practical warfare experience has helped immensely in the first months.
    - Wytwwww 2y ago
      > Meanwhile Ukraine was fighting in the total war mode from the first days (they do not pull "recruits" from streets in the broad daylight into military buses just for the fun of it) with huge external support Did they do that during the first few months of the war? I recall them having more volunteers than they could use in the early days.
  - geniusplanmate 2y ago
    At the moment, Russia has fully conquered (and integrated into their nation) 20% of the largest country in Europe. They seem intent on going for about 50% of it. US cannot claim a single victory in the past 4 decades, it's been debacle after debacle.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > US cannot claim a single victory in the past 4 decades, it's been debacle after debacle Militarily? You've got to be joking. Russia is still struggling with the military part of the campaign. Russia's "top of the line" weapons are routinely being potted by decades-old NATO kit. They are a spent force, conventionally. The military turned from a fighting force into a propaganda tool, aimed at projecting masculinity to a domestic audience over maintaining martial capability. The problem in the West is there are a lot of Soviet-era talking heads who make money when Russia gets attention. There is no money to be made if Russia is a loser. So it's in the interest of that foreign policy wing to trump up Moscow as if it's a competent military versus the dumpster fire that it is without Pyongyang and Tehran.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The direct role of Boris Johnson in tanking the Istanbul accords. Which is a myth - oft repeated, but with precisely zero substance. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41813032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41813032
  - fuoqi 2y ago
    Zero substance? It was reported by Ukrainska Pravda (and Ukraine is far from being famous for its freedom of press) not by some Russian propaganda outlet. It's the same as saying that WSJ citing "sources" has zero substance. Regardless, you can believe that the West did not provide any assurance to Ukraine during the Istanbul talks and that Russia has blown its own pipeline. It's your right.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      It was reported by Ukrainska Pravda It was speculated as a possibility by that article, but then it was looked into by others, quite thoroughly, and the narrative fell apart. That happens, you know. The Foreign Affairs article in the aforementioned thread has a pretty good writeup about the whole thing, if you are interested. You can believe that Russia has blown its own pipeline You can change the subject as many times as you want, and speculate, falsely, about what you think other people believe about random topics, all day long if you want. But this has absolutely no bearing on what we were just talking about.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  > supplying Ukraine since 2014 You are moving the goalposts, though. Support between 2014 and 2022 wasn't even remotely close to: > They send almost everything they can outside Also even now they aren't exactly sending everything they can, rather everything they want to.

libertine 2y ago

> They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons Equipment from the 1980s, 1990s, and early 2000s isn't "almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons." But you're 100% right, Ukraine should have received more, especially because we asked them to surrender their nuclear deterrence. There is still a lot of equipment Ukraine could use, like long-range cruise missiles would help them a lot to stop from being attacked by Russia long-range cruise missiles.

GJim 2y ago

> They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons We are doing no such thing. Unfortunately.

josefresco 2y ago

> They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons Oh come on now, you know this isn't true. The US and it's allies have a mountain of military tech they haven't sent for a variety of good and bad reasons. Ukraine regularly begs for more and better weapons, if they were "sent almost everything" would they be begging for more?

mrguyorama 2y ago

>They send almost everything they can outside of nuclear weapons, the most cutting edge military tech, and people (well, outside of a limited contingent of "advisors") We sent a couple hundred tanks, out of 8k. We sent a couple hundred Bradleys, out of 6k. We sent literally expiring missiles. We sent the tanks missing it's best armor, because we are squeamish about giving away uranium I guess. We sent a few extremely dated F16s, instead of the thousand F35s we have. One of the main ways things were donated to Ukraine was former Soviet powers donating their old trash and getting IOUs from NATO to replace it. With this sample platter of western equipment, Ukraine has dragged a supposed bear to its knees. With this smattering of 80s vintage, anti-soviet equipment, Ukraine has forced Russia to massively draw down their old soviet inheritance to replace the 2500 Russian tanks lost (plus several hundred essentially donated to Ukraine a couple years ago) and 1000 AFVs destroyed, and nearly 4000 IFVs destroyed. Like it's not some bombastic victory of course because both sides are so short on equipment that it's basically 1 million men vs 1 million men, and Russia CAN build artillery shells in quantity, so they are advancing at a snails pace in some areas. But the insane ROI on vintage NATO equipment is hilarious. The Soviets were always afraid of the West invading them, and it appears their opinion was accurate, they would have had a very very bad time. We built this stuff to mulch soviet equipment, and boy were we good at that. The Patriot is old enough to have been embarrassed during the first gulf war by a SCUD missile. HIMARS/ATACMS is even older. The tanks and Bradleys we sent are the scraps that didn't get upgraded after Desert Storm.