7 ms·

Sounds like you are way too used to the javascript ecosystem if you think getting an old project to build should take hours...

viraptor 2y ago
This is not even JS specific. All of Python / Ruby / other changing runtimes will require some upkeep. Even C recently needs some attention because clang updated default errors.
- Macha 2y ago
  Even some of my Rust projects end up in this state, where updating one library ends up with needing to update interacting libraries.
  - jakimfett 2y ago
    That sounds pretty frustrating. When I find my shell scripts from 20+ years ago, they still just run as intended.
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Ameo 2y ago
What ecosystem are you comparing to? Any C/C++ project with even mild complexity has a good chance of being extremely difficult to build due to either missing libraries that have to be installed manually, system incompatibilities, or compiler issues. Python has like 28 competing package managers and install options, half of which are deprecated or incompatible. I can't even run `pip install` at all anymore on Debian. Even Rust, which is usually great and has modern packaging and built-in dependency management, often has issues building old projects due to breaking changes to the compiler. All this is to try to say that I don't think this is some problem unique to JS at all - but rather a side effect of complex interconnected systems that change often. A big reason Docker and containers in general became so popular was because it makes this problem a lot less difficult by bundling much of the environment into the container, and Docker is very much agnostic to the language and ecosystem running inside it.
- ramon156 2y ago
  Libraries in the project fixes this whole issue for C/C++. As for compiler issues, just run it with the same compiler. It really shouldn't take more than 20 mins of setup.
  - lmm 2y ago
    > Libraries in the project fixes this whole issue for C/C++. Yeah, make sure no-one can ever fix your security vulnerabilities. > As for compiler issues, just run it with the same compiler. And when the same compiler doesn't exist for your new machine? Freezing everything makes things easier in the short term, but much harder in the long term.
- elashri 2y ago
  You can't use 'pip install' in debian because they chose to do that during the transition from python2 to python3. You should use 'pip3 install' which is provided by package python3-pip from debian. One can argue that this decision should be revised by debian but you should not install packages on system python installation for working into projects. Always use virtual environment.
  - Ameo 2y ago
    No that does not work either. You get an error like this: » pip3 install supervisor error: externally-managed-environment × This environment is externally managed ╰─> To install Python packages system-wide, try apt install python3-xyz, where xyz is the package you are trying to install. As far as I can understand, they did this on purpose to dissuade users from installing packages globally to avoid conflicts with other Python environments. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue about if that decision is right or not - I just wanted to use it as an example for my case that the JS ecosystem isn't alone and may even be far from the worst when it comes to this kind of issue.
    - 2y ago
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viraptor 2y ago

This is not even JS specific. All of Python / Ruby / other changing runtimes will require some upkeep. Even C recently needs some attention because clang updated default errors.

Macha 2y ago
Even some of my Rust projects end up in this state, where updating one library ends up with needing to update interacting libraries.
- jakimfett 2y ago
  That sounds pretty frustrating. When I find my shell scripts from 20+ years ago, they still just run as intended.
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Ameo 2y ago

What ecosystem are you comparing to? Any C/C++ project with even mild complexity has a good chance of being extremely difficult to build due to either missing libraries that have to be installed manually, system incompatibilities, or compiler issues. Python has like 28 competing package managers and install options, half of which are deprecated or incompatible. I can't even run `pip install` at all anymore on Debian. Even Rust, which is usually great and has modern packaging and built-in dependency management, often has issues building old projects due to breaking changes to the compiler. All this is to try to say that I don't think this is some problem unique to JS at all - but rather a side effect of complex interconnected systems that change often. A big reason Docker and containers in general became so popular was because it makes this problem a lot less difficult by bundling much of the environment into the container, and Docker is very much agnostic to the language and ecosystem running inside it.

ramon156 2y ago
Libraries in the project fixes this whole issue for C/C++. As for compiler issues, just run it with the same compiler. It really shouldn't take more than 20 mins of setup.
- lmm 2y ago
  > Libraries in the project fixes this whole issue for C/C++. Yeah, make sure no-one can ever fix your security vulnerabilities. > As for compiler issues, just run it with the same compiler. And when the same compiler doesn't exist for your new machine? Freezing everything makes things easier in the short term, but much harder in the long term.
elashri 2y ago
You can't use 'pip install' in debian because they chose to do that during the transition from python2 to python3. You should use 'pip3 install' which is provided by package python3-pip from debian. One can argue that this decision should be revised by debian but you should not install packages on system python installation for working into projects. Always use virtual environment.
- Ameo 2y ago
  No that does not work either. You get an error like this: » pip3 install supervisor error: externally-managed-environment × This environment is externally managed ╰─> To install Python packages system-wide, try apt install python3-xyz, where xyz is the package you are trying to install. As far as I can understand, they did this on purpose to dissuade users from installing packages globally to avoid conflicts with other Python environments. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue about if that decision is right or not - I just wanted to use it as an example for my case that the JS ecosystem isn't alone and may even be far from the worst when it comes to this kind of issue.
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