5 ms·

The worst part isn't just that it's nearly impossible to run/update an outdated JS project, but that this process will repeat itself ad infinitum. On the flip

by uludag 2y ago

The worst part isn't just that it's nearly impossible to run/update an outdated JS project, but that this process will repeat itself ad infinitum. On the flip side, anything that uses vanilla JS without a build will most likely run just fine, probably till the end of human civilization.

graypegg 2y ago
I truly believe some flavour of "Javascript Classic" (some future state of JS before some big shift in syntax/mass migration to something else), C and x86 instructions will follow humanity for the rest of time. There will be javascript somewhere aboard the interstellar spaceships of the future, and we will still complain about it.
- xg15 2y ago
  Yeah, starting to believe the hacking scene in the Matrix where the machine city was still running on IPv4 wasn't a blunder but foresight. There will also be someone playing Tetris, Doom and Final Fantasy VI on their neural interface, long after all modern games have been lost to time (and DRM).
- elzbardico 2y ago
  Well, even Fortran is still around us in some lapack code in numpy and in a lot of the stuff behing scipy, so, a lot closer than a lot of people can imagine. Basically a lot of AI depends on a bunch of absurdly optimized numeric libraries writen in Fortran. Fortran is well into the way at becoming a centenarian programing language at 74 years of age.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  My grandchildren will live to see Vernor Vinge's programmer-archeologists troubleshooting PHP issues on the Wordpress install responsible for life-support around Alpha Centauri.
  - kwertyoowiyop 2y ago
    Just bobble some programmers now.
- peutetre 2y ago
  JavaScript will be killed off by WebAssembly. Zombie JavaScript will be reduced to being glue code and then not even that.
  - yen223 2y ago
    JavaScript will be killed off by webassembly for about 5 years now
    - peutetre 2y ago
      The difference lately is the number of tools that are now in place for WebAssembly development and the new extensions to WebAssembly (WasmGC, Memory64, etc.). Despite 28 years of effort at optimization, JavaScript is outperformed by WebAssembly. There's not much coming back from that: https://jordaneldredge.com/blog/speeding-up-winamps-music-visualizer-with-webassembly/ https://jordaneldredge.com/blog/speeding-up-winamps-music-vi... https://www.amazon.science/blog/how-prime-video-updates-its-app-for-more-than-8-000-device-types https://www.amazon.science/blog/how-prime-video-updates-its-... https://web.dev/case-studies/google-sheets-wasmgc https://web.dev/case-studies/google-sheets-wasmgc
      - liontwist 2y ago
        ?? JavaScript was outperformed by every language since it was introduced. It doesn’t matter. What matters is what people put in their web pages.
        peutetre 2y ago
        But now JavaScript is no longer the privileged language in the browser. With WebAssembly every language runs in the browser and runs better.
        liontwist 2y ago
        And what will prove that is adoption. As others have said, that has been “just around the corner” for years.
- yen223 2y ago
  I sometimes think about one of the Star Trek episodes where the ship was getting attacked by a "SQL injection", and I think that's pretty realistic
- mst 2y ago
  I think it was 'A Deepness In The Sky' that posited so many layers of legacy underlying the starship control systems of the era that one of the most crucial positions on a ship was that of 'Programmer-Archeologist.'
  - wpm 2y ago
    That sounds great. Added to my list. I adore the idea of somewhere on the Star Trek Enterprise, underneath the isolinear chips, the EPS conduits, the warp containment field control mechanisms, somewhere, if you dig far enough, override enough, you can get an LCARS screen that is all black, with a small `$` in the upper left and a blinking text cursor, waiting for a command.
  - jeffrallen 2y ago
    I am already a programmer archeologist, and it's one of the most rewarding parts of my job. Though my most recent project is regrettably well written and maintained. :)
    - banku_brougham 2y ago
      im going to try and have this attitude
jazzyjackson 2y ago
YMMV but I had a 4 year old project whose only dependencies were socketio and express and it booted right up. So stick to stable, mature projects and you're likely to be fine.
- authorfly 2y ago
  Just watch out because socketio must be version matched for client-server or you will get the most annoying errors and state inconsistencies in the world. That's a scary production update let me tell you. Version 2.3.0 still scares me to this day after trying to upgrade that without production downtime.
cxr 2y ago
> it's nearly impossible to run/update an outdated JS project You corrected yourself, but it's worth emphasizing here: a _NodeJS_ project, you mean. Unless you're using non-standard APIs, stuff written to run in the browser generally keeps working just as well as it did before, no matter whether it was written 2 years ago or 10.
wink 2y ago
What if your project is old enough to predate the modern "just use vanilla js, it's fine"? :tableflip: j/k - I'm slowly removing all the Zepto code I have and it's usually a relatively quick search&replace.
nikanj 2y ago
Or until Google decides to change things to be more standards compliant, regardless of the collateral damage
shepherdjerred 2y ago
This nearly impossible task took the author two hours
- abenga 2y ago
  He gave up and went back to an old version. So we don't know if it was possible or not.

by uludag 2y ago

graypegg 2y ago

I truly believe some flavour of "Javascript Classic" (some future state of JS before some big shift in syntax/mass migration to something else), C and x86 instructions will follow humanity for the rest of time. There will be javascript somewhere aboard the interstellar spaceships of the future, and we will still complain about it.

xg15 2y ago
Yeah, starting to believe the hacking scene in the Matrix where the machine city was still running on IPv4 wasn't a blunder but foresight. There will also be someone playing Tetris, Doom and Final Fantasy VI on their neural interface, long after all modern games have been lost to time (and DRM).
elzbardico 2y ago
Well, even Fortran is still around us in some lapack code in numpy and in a lot of the stuff behing scipy, so, a lot closer than a lot of people can imagine. Basically a lot of AI depends on a bunch of absurdly optimized numeric libraries writen in Fortran. Fortran is well into the way at becoming a centenarian programing language at 74 years of age.
pavel_lishin 2y ago
My grandchildren will live to see Vernor Vinge's programmer-archeologists troubleshooting PHP issues on the Wordpress install responsible for life-support around Alpha Centauri.
- kwertyoowiyop 2y ago
  Just bobble some programmers now.
peutetre 2y ago
JavaScript will be killed off by WebAssembly. Zombie JavaScript will be reduced to being glue code and then not even that.
- yen223 2y ago
  JavaScript will be killed off by webassembly for about 5 years now
  - peutetre 2y ago
    The difference lately is the number of tools that are now in place for WebAssembly development and the new extensions to WebAssembly (WasmGC, Memory64, etc.). Despite 28 years of effort at optimization, JavaScript is outperformed by WebAssembly. There's not much coming back from that: https://jordaneldredge.com/blog/speeding-up-winamps-music-visualizer-with-webassembly/ https://jordaneldredge.com/blog/speeding-up-winamps-music-vi... https://www.amazon.science/blog/how-prime-video-updates-its-app-for-more-than-8-000-device-types https://www.amazon.science/blog/how-prime-video-updates-its-... https://web.dev/case-studies/google-sheets-wasmgc https://web.dev/case-studies/google-sheets-wasmgc
    - liontwist 2y ago
      ?? JavaScript was outperformed by every language since it was introduced. It doesn’t matter. What matters is what people put in their web pages.
      - peutetre 2y ago
        But now JavaScript is no longer the privileged language in the browser. With WebAssembly every language runs in the browser and runs better.
        liontwist 2y ago
        And what will prove that is adoption. As others have said, that has been “just around the corner” for years.
yen223 2y ago
I sometimes think about one of the Star Trek episodes where the ship was getting attacked by a "SQL injection", and I think that's pretty realistic
mst 2y ago
I think it was 'A Deepness In The Sky' that posited so many layers of legacy underlying the starship control systems of the era that one of the most crucial positions on a ship was that of 'Programmer-Archeologist.'
- wpm 2y ago
  That sounds great. Added to my list. I adore the idea of somewhere on the Star Trek Enterprise, underneath the isolinear chips, the EPS conduits, the warp containment field control mechanisms, somewhere, if you dig far enough, override enough, you can get an LCARS screen that is all black, with a small `$` in the upper left and a blinking text cursor, waiting for a command.
- jeffrallen 2y ago
  I am already a programmer archeologist, and it's one of the most rewarding parts of my job. Though my most recent project is regrettably well written and maintained. :)
  - banku_brougham 2y ago
    im going to try and have this attitude

jazzyjackson 2y ago

YMMV but I had a 4 year old project whose only dependencies were socketio and express and it booted right up. So stick to stable, mature projects and you're likely to be fine.

authorfly 2y ago
Just watch out because socketio must be version matched for client-server or you will get the most annoying errors and state inconsistencies in the world. That's a scary production update let me tell you. Version 2.3.0 still scares me to this day after trying to upgrade that without production downtime.

cxr 2y ago

> it's nearly impossible to run/update an outdated JS project You corrected yourself, but it's worth emphasizing here: a _NodeJS_ project, you mean. Unless you're using non-standard APIs, stuff written to run in the browser generally keeps working just as well as it did before, no matter whether it was written 2 years ago or 10.

wink 2y ago

What if your project is old enough to predate the modern "just use vanilla js, it's fine"? :tableflip: j/k - I'm slowly removing all the Zepto code I have and it's usually a relatively quick search&replace.

nikanj 2y ago

Or until Google decides to change things to be more standards compliant, regardless of the collateral damage

shepherdjerred 2y ago

This nearly impossible task took the author two hours

abenga 2y ago
He gave up and went back to an old version. So we don't know if it was possible or not.