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I find myself motivated to alleviate suffering in other beings. It feels good that a quarter million shrimp are better off because I donated a few hundred buck

I find myself motivated to alleviate suffering in other beings. It feels good that a quarter million shrimp are better off because I donated a few hundred bucks. It makes me feel like my existence on this planet is worthwhile. I did my good deed for the day. There was a time when my good deeds were more motivated by fear. I found that fear wasn't a good motivator. This has become the consensus view in the EA community. EAs generally think it's important to avoid burnout. After reworking my motivations, doing good now feels like a way to thrive, not a way to avoid fear. The part of me which was afraid feels good about this development, because my new motivational structure is more sustainable. If you're not motivated to alleviate suffering in other beings, it is what it is. I'm not going to insult you or anything. However, if I notice you insulting others over moral trifles, I might privately think to myself that you are being hyperbolic. When I put on my EA-type utilitarian hat on, almost all internet fighting seems to lack perspective. I support your ability to express yourself. (I'm a little skeptical that's the main driver of the typical PS5 purchase, but that's beside the point.) I want you to thrive! I consume meat, so I can't condemn you for consuming meat. I did try going vegan for a bit, but a vegan diet was causing fatigue. I now make a mild effort to eat a low-suffering diet. I also donate to https://gfi.org/ https://gfi.org/ to support research into alternative meats. (I think it's plausible that the utilitarian impact of my diet+donations is net positive, since the invention of viable alternative meats could have such a large impact.) And whenever I get the chance, I rant about the state of vegan nutrition online, in the hope that vegans will notice my rants and improve things. (Note that I'm not a member of the EA community, but I agree with aspects of the philosophy. My issues with the community can go in another thread.) (I appreciate you writing this reply. Specifically, I find myself wondering if utilitarian advocacy would be more effective if what I just wrote, about the value of rejecting fear-style motivation, was made explicit from the beginning. It could make utilitarianism both more appealing and more sustainable.)

jhanschoo 2y ago
Hi, I'm a flexitarian who finds a more restrictive diet than the one I am having unsustainable in terms of my habits, so I'm interested in information regarding the topic. Can you direct me to what you've discussed regarding vegan nutrition?
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41820828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41820828 https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/dbw2mgSGSAKB45fAk/vegan-nutrition-testing-project-interim-report https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/dbw2mgSGSAKB45fAk/... Really I want to see vegans do a comprehensive investigation of every last nutrient that's disproportionately found in animal products, including random stuff like beta-alanine, creatine, choline, etc., and take a "better safe than sorry" approach of inventing a veggie burger that contains all that stuff in abundance, and is palatable. I suspect you could make a lot of money by inventing such a burger. Vegans are currently fixated on improving taste, and they seem to have a bit of a blind spot around nutrition. I expect a veggie burger which mysteriously makes vegans feel good, gives them energy, and makes them feel like they should eat more of it will tend to sell well.
  - jhanschoo 2y ago
    Thanks!
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    That would be a game changer. I also crave for burgers and taste/texture of most of them improved drastically but nutrients aren’t the first objective it seems, appart protein and sometime calcium/b12. I often eat complemented processed food (~1serve/day) primary to transform lazy-meals (fries, pizza, sandwiches…) with a lazy-healthy meal. When I stopped flesh those became even more useful. I recommend the bars (no preparation) and the "pots" (salty meals). Shakers are good and cheap. All seems very balanced and complete nutritiously. http://jimmyjoy.com/ http://jimmyjoy.com/ Not affiliated in any way, just an happy customer.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    More suggestions, if someone wants to create a product that I personally would be enthusiastic to try: * No weird yeast or fungal ingredients -- living or dead. I get fatigue after consuming that stuff. My body doesn't respond well to it. I suppose the most ordinary sort of mushrooms are probably OK. * No eggs, they're pretty suffering-intensive: https://sandhoefner.github.io/animal_suffering_calculator https://sandhoefner.github.io/animal_suffering_calculator * Minimally processed ingredients preferred. * Infuse with iodized salt, healthy fats, and spices for flavor. Overall good taste is much more important than replicating meat flavor/mouthfeel. I assume if you iterate on the spices enough, you can come up with something that tastes incredible. I'm imagining a heavily fortified, compressed bean patty of some kind. I suppose with beans you'd have to account for phytates interfering with nutrient absorption, though.

jhanschoo 2y ago

Hi, I'm a flexitarian who finds a more restrictive diet than the one I am having unsustainable in terms of my habits, so I'm interested in information regarding the topic. Can you direct me to what you've discussed regarding vegan nutrition?

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41820828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41820828 https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/dbw2mgSGSAKB45fAk/vegan-nutrition-testing-project-interim-report https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/dbw2mgSGSAKB45fAk/... Really I want to see vegans do a comprehensive investigation of every last nutrient that's disproportionately found in animal products, including random stuff like beta-alanine, creatine, choline, etc., and take a "better safe than sorry" approach of inventing a veggie burger that contains all that stuff in abundance, and is palatable. I suspect you could make a lot of money by inventing such a burger. Vegans are currently fixated on improving taste, and they seem to have a bit of a blind spot around nutrition. I expect a veggie burger which mysteriously makes vegans feel good, gives them energy, and makes them feel like they should eat more of it will tend to sell well.
- jhanschoo 2y ago
  Thanks!
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  That would be a game changer. I also crave for burgers and taste/texture of most of them improved drastically but nutrients aren’t the first objective it seems, appart protein and sometime calcium/b12. I often eat complemented processed food (~1serve/day) primary to transform lazy-meals (fries, pizza, sandwiches…) with a lazy-healthy meal. When I stopped flesh those became even more useful. I recommend the bars (no preparation) and the "pots" (salty meals). Shakers are good and cheap. All seems very balanced and complete nutritiously. http://jimmyjoy.com/ http://jimmyjoy.com/ Not affiliated in any way, just an happy customer.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  More suggestions, if someone wants to create a product that I personally would be enthusiastic to try: * No weird yeast or fungal ingredients -- living or dead. I get fatigue after consuming that stuff. My body doesn't respond well to it. I suppose the most ordinary sort of mushrooms are probably OK. * No eggs, they're pretty suffering-intensive: https://sandhoefner.github.io/animal_suffering_calculator https://sandhoefner.github.io/animal_suffering_calculator * Minimally processed ingredients preferred. * Infuse with iodized salt, healthy fats, and spices for flavor. Overall good taste is much more important than replicating meat flavor/mouthfeel. I assume if you iterate on the spices enough, you can come up with something that tastes incredible. I'm imagining a heavily fortified, compressed bean patty of some kind. I suppose with beans you'd have to account for phytates interfering with nutrient absorption, though.