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> The teenager is making an implicit moral judgement, with themselves as the only moral patient. No they're not! You have made a claim of the form "these thing
by sixo 2y ago
> The teenager is making an implicit moral judgement, with themselves as the only moral patient.
No they're not! You have made a claim of the form "these things are the same thing"—but it only seems that way if you can't think of a single plausible alternative. Here's one:
* Humans are motivated by two competing drives. The first drive we can call "fear", which aims to avoid suffering, either personally or in people you care about or identify with. This derives from our natural empathic instinct, but is can be extended by a socially-construction of group identity. So, the shrimp argument is saying "your avoiding-suffering instinct can and should be applied to crustaceans too", which is contrary to how most people feel. Fear also includes "fear of ostracization", this being equivalent to death in a prehistoric context.
* The second drive is "thriving" or "growing" or "becoming yourself", and leads you to glimpse the person you could be, things you could do, identities you could hold, etc, and to strive to transform yourself into those things. The teenager ultimately wants the PS5 because they've identified with it in some way—they see it as a way to express themself. Their "utilitarian" actions in this context are instrumental, not moral—towards the attainment of what-they-want. I think, in this simple model, I'd also broader this drive to include "eating meat"—you don't do this for the animal or to abate suffering, you do it because you want to: your body's hungry, you desire the pleasure of satiation, and you act to realize that desire.
* The two drives are not the same, and in the case of eating meat are directly opposed. (You could perhaps devise a way to see either as, ultimately, an expression of the other.) Human nature, then, basically undertakes the "thriving" drive except when there's a threat of suffering, in which case we switch gears to "fear" until it's handled.
* Much utilitarian discourse seems to exist in a universe where the apparently-selfish "thriving" drive doesn't exist, or has been moralized out of existence—because it doesn't look good on paper. But, however it sounds, it in fact exists, and you will find that almost all living humans will defend their right to express themselves, sometimes to the death. This is at some level the essence of life, and the rejection of it leads many people to view EA-type utilitarianism as antithetical to life itself.
* One reason for this is that "fear-mode thinking" is cognitively expensive, and while people will maintain it for a while, they will eventually balk against it, no matter how reasonable it seems (probably this explains the last decade of American politics).
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y agoI find myself motivated to alleviate suffering in other beings. It feels good that a quarter million shrimp are better off because I donated a few hundred bucks. It makes me feel like my existence on this planet is worthwhile. I did my good deed for the day. There was a time when my good deeds were more motivated by fear. I found that fear wasn't a good motivator. This has become the consensus view in the EA community. EAs generally think it's important to avoid burnout. After reworking my motivations, doing good now feels like a way to thrive, not a way to avoid fear. The part of me which was afraid feels good about this development, because my new motivational structure is more sustainable. If you're not motivated to alleviate suffering in other beings, it is what it is. I'm not going to insult you or anything. However, if I notice you insulting others over moral trifles, I might privately think to myself that you are being hyperbolic. When I put on my EA-type utilitarian hat on, almost all internet fighting seems to lack perspective. I support your ability to express yourself. (I'm a little skeptical that's the main driver of the typical PS5 purchase, but that's beside the point.) I want you to thrive! I consume meat, so I can't condemn you for consuming meat. I did try going vegan for a bit, but a vegan diet was causing fatigue. I now make a mild effort to eat a low-suffering diet. I also donate to https://gfi.org/ https://gfi.org/ to support research into alternative meats. (I think it's plausible that the utilitarian impact of my diet+donations is net positive, since the invention of viable alternative meats could have such a large impact.) And whenever I get the chance, I rant about the state of vegan nutrition online, in the hope that vegans will notice my rants and improve things. (Note that I'm not a member of the EA community, but I agree with aspects of the philosophy. My issues with the community can go in another thread.) (I appreciate you writing this reply. Specifically, I find myself wondering if utilitarian advocacy would be more effective if what I just wrote, about the value of rejecting fear-style motivation, was made explicit from the beginning. It could make utilitarianism both more appealing and more sustainable.)
- jhanschoo 2y agoHi, I'm a flexitarian who finds a more restrictive diet than the one I am having unsustainable in terms of my habits, so I'm interested in information regarding the topic. Can you direct me to what you've discussed regarding vegan nutrition?