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This is the more correct answer. It's also answers why developed nations became developed and undeveloped nations did not. The west advanced just fine without "

This is the more correct answer. It's also answers why developed nations became developed and undeveloped nations did not. The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior. That being said, I wouldn't use the US as some bastion of progress. Technically, we haven't progressed much since the 70s? 80s? outside of GDP going up, but that's just a number on a chart. Most of us today could go back to the 70s and live not much different than now (compared to the any earlier decade). It's mostly a side effect of being the world's reserve currency.

cardanome 2y ago
> The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior. Centuries prior they had a global slave trade going on. The wealth of the West is build on colonialism. Culture just reflects the underlying material conditions that people live in. There is nothing inherently superior about Western culture. Wealth is cumulative and first mover advantages are strong. And if anyone threatens the current hegemony, there is always the use of force. But yes, you are right there has been a stagnation since the 80s and things are slowly changing ins favor of countries like China and India.
- synecdoche 2y ago
  There is no basis for the claim that different things of some category would progress exactly the same given the same set of circumstances. Those different things, like culture, have significant impact on everything, including economic growth. I'm sure you can think of a culture or policy, which you consider backwards, and counterproductive. Well, there you go.
- FredPret 2y ago
  So in your mind, slaves picked cotton in the south, and next thing you know the US is a global superpower, and that’s all there is to it? Surely you can conceive of a more complex world than that?
  - throwaway0123_5 2y ago
    Colonial-esque behavior by the US was (is?) hardly limited to plantation slavery in the US south. For much of the late 1800s and most of the 1900s the US government was more than happy to intervene in the domestic affairs of other countries to protect corporate profits. One particularly egregious example is the CIA-aided overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in the 50s, largely to protect the profits of US fruit companies, but you don't have to look far to find more. From General Smedley Butler, most decorated marine at the time of his death and the only marine with two medals of honor: > I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
    - FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
      As the saying goes, there's a special place in Hell for the Dulles brothers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foster_Dulles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foster_Dulles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Dulles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Dulles
    - FredPret 2y ago
      That's an argument that the US isn't morally perfect. (By the way, they're a hell of a lot better than any historical empire you could mention). I don't see how this invalidates the idea that the US culture is better at creating and running a great economy: Every country out there has always defended its interests in more or less muscular ways. Exactly the way you describe for the US, and much worse as well. Where are they now?
- aliasxneo 2y ago
  > There is nothing inherently superior about Western culture. I'm not necessarily intending to contradict this outright, but after having just spent a summer reading through the history of the collectivist cultures in Russia/China during the last century, all I could think of is how lucky I was not to be born into that. So, sure, nothing "inherently" superior, but certainly comparatively superior, in my opinion.
  - myworkinisgood 2y ago
    Russia did have some problems, but China suffered badly due to colonialism.
    - nradov 2y ago
      Well that begs the question of why was China so weak that they could be easily colonized and exploited by the UK, Japan, and other foreign powers? At the time they didn't lack for population, natural resources, technology, ports, etc. Was their weakness caused by culture or something else? In other words, why were they the colonized instead of the colonizers? I'm not trying to make excuses for the crimes against humanity committed in China by the colonial powers. But we need to look deeper into the root causes of historical events.
      - hmm37 2y ago
        To say they didn't lack in technology is just crazy. By the late 18th century early 19th century around the time of the first opium war, the technological differences was quite sound, such that militarily there was no way China cannons e.g. matched anything the West had, allowing UK's navy to bombard China from practically anywhere without any consequences. In fact even into the early 20th century, during the siege of Xi'an during the 1930s, they were still using ladders, etc. to try the breach the walls like they were doing a millennium ago.
        FredPret 2y ago
        I think nradov's question stands. Why was this the case?
- blackhawkC17 2y ago
  > The wealth of the West is build on colonialism. It's built on rule of law, stability, low corruption, and good governance. Most countries lack these factors, making them stay poor. Signed: Someone from a poor, developing country (Nigeria).
- Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
  Now everyone but the west is practicing slavery, yet the supposed economic benefits of slavery seem to elude them. Why might that be?
FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
Think you missed the massive explosion during the 1990's (the birth of the internet) and the precursor during the Reagan years (basically gargantuan deficit spending on defense). Factories and farming took a huge hit in 1970's and 1980's due to the rise of globalization (and shift from decades of hot wars to a cooled off one) and a trade war with Japan.
dingnuts 2y ago
Uh, what you said is only true if you ignore all of the American technology invented since the 1980s. Just the iPhone alone acts as a counterpoint. The world has changed massively in fifty years because of American inventions made possible by our developed economy With all due respect I have no idea what you're talking about
- Gigablah 2y ago
  Did you just claim all the technology behind the iPhone as American inventions?
Axsuul 2y ago
> Most of us today could go back to the 70s and live not much different than now (compared to the any earlier decade). It's mostly a side effect of being the world's reserve currency. There's been 50 years of technological innovation since then. The entire fabric of society has been changed by it and has affected how we communicate and do business.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Food has improved dramatically. Quality and availability. We now have fresh produce year round, not seasonally. Meat consumption is up something like 30-40lbs a year. For is also vastly more interesting (unless various jello molds are your thing). Houses are much more comfortable, energy efficient, and larger. Air-conditioned in summer, heated to a reasonable temp in winter. Healthcare while it has become unaffordable has greatly improved. Car reliability/safety has improved insanely. The average car now has A/C unlike the 70s. Compute power. The average person has the knowledge of the ENTIRE world at their fingertips. But totally no progress has been made??? We have weather satellites to prepare for meteorological disasters/storms saving so many lives. We can talk to family whenever we want, not a 5 minute conversation the first Sunday of the month. We have vastly more free time. My family made most of their close in the 1970s. Washed by hand. Hang out to dry. Now we have a washer and dryer, a dishwasher, a microwave, an air cooker, all freeing up time to do other things. Your comment is like the people that watch American movies white eating pop-corn, wear blue jeans and sneakers, and say 'America doesn't have a culture'.
- gopher_space 2y ago
  Now do rent.
  - varelaseb 2y ago
    You pay more. Boohoo
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    Home loan interest rates in 1982 were 16%, on top of a very bad economy.
- 76SlashDolphin 2y ago
  All right, I'll bite > Food has improved dramatically. Not necessarily. While accessibility is far better, it comes at the cost of having monocultures, mass farming, and heavy importation during off-seasons. This has made, say, the average tomato cheaper and more accessible year-round but substantially worse than the seasonal tomatoes you would have 40 years ago. > Houses are larger... But more and more people live in cramped apartments in big cities so that point is moot. > Healthcare... And is it more important that a poor 25 year-old young person with their whole productive tax-paying life ahead of them can seek care appropriately Vs the hospitals keeping 80+ year-old fossils alive with their "better healthcare". The only exception is ozempic and the likes but that didn't use to be necessary before cars killed most public spaces. > Car reliability/safety... By turning them into huge monstrosities and widening roads, again destroying public spaces and walkability. The only major breakthrough here is lead-free fuel. > Compute power. The average person has the knowledge of the ENTIRE world at their fingertips. But totally no progress has been made??? I'll give you that one but it's at the cost of turning a computer into an addiction machine. I still think it's a net positive but it isn't so clear cut. > We have weather satellites True but now we're have much more extreme weather thanks too climate change. > We can talk to family whenever we want... We can but when do we? I keep in touch with family often but it definitely feels less special than how it was even in the 00s. > We have vastly more free time... Assuming you have the same sized family and roles. Now's your need both parents in a family to work to make ends meet for the average young person so the freed time has mostly gone to the older generation. Overall zoomers and gen alpha definitely have it worse than their parents. And this is coming from someone with a middle class background who now gets paid well to program -everyone I know my age feels this way. The main lifestyle change we got recently is cheap travel which is amazing but the basics are definitely harder (and this is why birthrates are down).
myworkinisgood 2y ago
You cannot forget about the money drained from the undeveloped world during colonialism and the subsequent effect which continued during cold war.
- FredPret 2y ago
  The undeveloped world doesn't have, and never had, enough money to be "drained" into a pool as large as the current US economy
- o11c 2y ago
  Money is made up and doesn't matter. This applies even to gold during colonialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution

cardanome 2y ago

> The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior. Centuries prior they had a global slave trade going on. The wealth of the West is build on colonialism. Culture just reflects the underlying material conditions that people live in. There is nothing inherently superior about Western culture. Wealth is cumulative and first mover advantages are strong. And if anyone threatens the current hegemony, there is always the use of force. But yes, you are right there has been a stagnation since the 80s and things are slowly changing ins favor of countries like China and India.

synecdoche 2y ago
There is no basis for the claim that different things of some category would progress exactly the same given the same set of circumstances. Those different things, like culture, have significant impact on everything, including economic growth. I'm sure you can think of a culture or policy, which you consider backwards, and counterproductive. Well, there you go.
FredPret 2y ago
So in your mind, slaves picked cotton in the south, and next thing you know the US is a global superpower, and that’s all there is to it? Surely you can conceive of a more complex world than that?
- throwaway0123_5 2y ago
  Colonial-esque behavior by the US was (is?) hardly limited to plantation slavery in the US south. For much of the late 1800s and most of the 1900s the US government was more than happy to intervene in the domestic affairs of other countries to protect corporate profits. One particularly egregious example is the CIA-aided overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in the 50s, largely to protect the profits of US fruit companies, but you don't have to look far to find more. From General Smedley Butler, most decorated marine at the time of his death and the only marine with two medals of honor: > I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
    As the saying goes, there's a special place in Hell for the Dulles brothers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foster_Dulles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foster_Dulles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Dulles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Dulles
  - FredPret 2y ago
    That's an argument that the US isn't morally perfect. (By the way, they're a hell of a lot better than any historical empire you could mention). I don't see how this invalidates the idea that the US culture is better at creating and running a great economy: Every country out there has always defended its interests in more or less muscular ways. Exactly the way you describe for the US, and much worse as well. Where are they now?
aliasxneo 2y ago
> There is nothing inherently superior about Western culture. I'm not necessarily intending to contradict this outright, but after having just spent a summer reading through the history of the collectivist cultures in Russia/China during the last century, all I could think of is how lucky I was not to be born into that. So, sure, nothing "inherently" superior, but certainly comparatively superior, in my opinion.
- myworkinisgood 2y ago
  Russia did have some problems, but China suffered badly due to colonialism.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Well that begs the question of why was China so weak that they could be easily colonized and exploited by the UK, Japan, and other foreign powers? At the time they didn't lack for population, natural resources, technology, ports, etc. Was their weakness caused by culture or something else? In other words, why were they the colonized instead of the colonizers? I'm not trying to make excuses for the crimes against humanity committed in China by the colonial powers. But we need to look deeper into the root causes of historical events.
    - hmm37 2y ago
      To say they didn't lack in technology is just crazy. By the late 18th century early 19th century around the time of the first opium war, the technological differences was quite sound, such that militarily there was no way China cannons e.g. matched anything the West had, allowing UK's navy to bombard China from practically anywhere without any consequences. In fact even into the early 20th century, during the siege of Xi'an during the 1930s, they were still using ladders, etc. to try the breach the walls like they were doing a millennium ago.
      - FredPret 2y ago
        I think nradov's question stands. Why was this the case?
blackhawkC17 2y ago
> The wealth of the West is build on colonialism. It's built on rule of law, stability, low corruption, and good governance. Most countries lack these factors, making them stay poor. Signed: Someone from a poor, developing country (Nigeria).
Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
Now everyone but the west is practicing slavery, yet the supposed economic benefits of slavery seem to elude them. Why might that be?

FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago

Think you missed the massive explosion during the 1990's (the birth of the internet) and the precursor during the Reagan years (basically gargantuan deficit spending on defense). Factories and farming took a huge hit in 1970's and 1980's due to the rise of globalization (and shift from decades of hot wars to a cooled off one) and a trade war with Japan.

dingnuts 2y ago

Uh, what you said is only true if you ignore all of the American technology invented since the 1980s. Just the iPhone alone acts as a counterpoint. The world has changed massively in fifty years because of American inventions made possible by our developed economy With all due respect I have no idea what you're talking about

Gigablah 2y ago
Did you just claim all the technology behind the iPhone as American inventions?

Axsuul 2y ago

> Most of us today could go back to the 70s and live not much different than now (compared to the any earlier decade). It's mostly a side effect of being the world's reserve currency. There's been 50 years of technological innovation since then. The entire fabric of society has been changed by it and has affected how we communicate and do business.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

Food has improved dramatically. Quality and availability. We now have fresh produce year round, not seasonally. Meat consumption is up something like 30-40lbs a year. For is also vastly more interesting (unless various jello molds are your thing). Houses are much more comfortable, energy efficient, and larger. Air-conditioned in summer, heated to a reasonable temp in winter. Healthcare while it has become unaffordable has greatly improved. Car reliability/safety has improved insanely. The average car now has A/C unlike the 70s. Compute power. The average person has the knowledge of the ENTIRE world at their fingertips. But totally no progress has been made??? We have weather satellites to prepare for meteorological disasters/storms saving so many lives. We can talk to family whenever we want, not a 5 minute conversation the first Sunday of the month. We have vastly more free time. My family made most of their close in the 1970s. Washed by hand. Hang out to dry. Now we have a washer and dryer, a dishwasher, a microwave, an air cooker, all freeing up time to do other things. Your comment is like the people that watch American movies white eating pop-corn, wear blue jeans and sneakers, and say 'America doesn't have a culture'.

gopher_space 2y ago
Now do rent.
- varelaseb 2y ago
  You pay more. Boohoo
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Home loan interest rates in 1982 were 16%, on top of a very bad economy.
76SlashDolphin 2y ago
All right, I'll bite > Food has improved dramatically. Not necessarily. While accessibility is far better, it comes at the cost of having monocultures, mass farming, and heavy importation during off-seasons. This has made, say, the average tomato cheaper and more accessible year-round but substantially worse than the seasonal tomatoes you would have 40 years ago. > Houses are larger... But more and more people live in cramped apartments in big cities so that point is moot. > Healthcare... And is it more important that a poor 25 year-old young person with their whole productive tax-paying life ahead of them can seek care appropriately Vs the hospitals keeping 80+ year-old fossils alive with their "better healthcare". The only exception is ozempic and the likes but that didn't use to be necessary before cars killed most public spaces. > Car reliability/safety... By turning them into huge monstrosities and widening roads, again destroying public spaces and walkability. The only major breakthrough here is lead-free fuel. > Compute power. The average person has the knowledge of the ENTIRE world at their fingertips. But totally no progress has been made??? I'll give you that one but it's at the cost of turning a computer into an addiction machine. I still think it's a net positive but it isn't so clear cut. > We have weather satellites True but now we're have much more extreme weather thanks too climate change. > We can talk to family whenever we want... We can but when do we? I keep in touch with family often but it definitely feels less special than how it was even in the 00s. > We have vastly more free time... Assuming you have the same sized family and roles. Now's your need both parents in a family to work to make ends meet for the average young person so the freed time has mostly gone to the older generation. Overall zoomers and gen alpha definitely have it worse than their parents. And this is coming from someone with a middle class background who now gets paid well to program -everyone I know my age feels this way. The main lifestyle change we got recently is cheap travel which is amazing but the basics are definitely harder (and this is why birthrates are down).

myworkinisgood 2y ago

You cannot forget about the money drained from the undeveloped world during colonialism and the subsequent effect which continued during cold war.

FredPret 2y ago
The undeveloped world doesn't have, and never had, enough money to be "drained" into a pool as large as the current US economy
o11c 2y ago
Money is made up and doesn't matter. This applies even to gold during colonialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution