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I'm part of the brain drain from my developing country-of-birth. It's more than just money. To me, the money is a symptom of the real issue. The real issue fo

I'm part of the brain drain from my developing country-of-birth. It's more than just money. To me, the money is a symptom of the real issue. The real issue for me was the culture that exists in my birthplace. It just isn't welcoming to nerds or rich people. It doesn't lend itself to ever becoming developed. When I compare and contrast to the New World: I find a much more welcoming culture that encourages personal progress. And not only are nerds welcome, but all sorts of productive folk. It's absolutely no surprise to me that the US is outperforming the rest of the world economically to a comical degree.

StefanBatory 2y ago
Culture aspect is way underrated. It's not only fact that in Western Europe I could earn a lot more. But also that I don't have to deal with massive corruption. I don't have to deal with feeling I have to be constantly on guard. I don't have to deal with failing education. I don't have to hide who I am in fear of being ostracized by society. (even if for that point we made a lot of progress - but still, why wait endlessly while I can get it right away somewhere else?)
- namaria 2y ago
  Culture is not the cause of development. It's the result. The complex human system always has a central area of development and an extended periphery. You can't have homogeneous development because development is the concentration of resources. Wherever these resources concentrate will have a privileged economy, and culture (because it can afford it) and it will develop a superiority complex. And it will keep moving. In 2100 when the center of the world economy has moved on from the US, the new center will have beautifully constructed narratives about how their culture is superior and their rise inevitable.
  - StefanBatory 2y ago
    I live in a country where I am called rainbow disease by the prominent priests for being bi, and the previous de facto leader said that I'm only "Polish-speaking person" and not a Pole because I do not believe in God. Thing is, that while what you're saying could be true, from a perspective of a person living in it - I don't care.
    - namaria 2y ago
      I have no idea what point you're trying to make
dfkasdfksdf 2y ago
This is the more correct answer. It's also answers why developed nations became developed and undeveloped nations did not. The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior. That being said, I wouldn't use the US as some bastion of progress. Technically, we haven't progressed much since the 70s? 80s? outside of GDP going up, but that's just a number on a chart. Most of us today could go back to the 70s and live not much different than now (compared to the any earlier decade). It's mostly a side effect of being the world's reserve currency.
- cardanome 2y ago
  > The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior. Centuries prior they had a global slave trade going on. The wealth of the West is build on colonialism. Culture just reflects the underlying material conditions that people live in. There is nothing inherently superior about Western culture. Wealth is cumulative and first mover advantages are strong. And if anyone threatens the current hegemony, there is always the use of force. But yes, you are right there has been a stagnation since the 80s and things are slowly changing ins favor of countries like China and India.
  - synecdoche 2y ago
    There is no basis for the claim that different things of some category would progress exactly the same given the same set of circumstances. Those different things, like culture, have significant impact on everything, including economic growth. I'm sure you can think of a culture or policy, which you consider backwards, and counterproductive. Well, there you go.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    So in your mind, slaves picked cotton in the south, and next thing you know the US is a global superpower, and that’s all there is to it? Surely you can conceive of a more complex world than that?
    - throwaway0123_5 2y ago
akudha 2y ago
U.S is outperforming everyone else economically. At what cost though? And for how long? There is an insane wealth gap. People always seem to be stressed. There is plenty of food, but quality isn’t great. We don’t even need to start on healthcare and housing and college tuition. Then there is gun violence. Women’s rights are going away slowly too. Sure, developing countries have lots of problems too. I suppose each person has to decide what kind of problems they are ok dealing with? Sad part is - most of these problems are man made. Even sadder is that just a few dozen people seem to be the cause for most problems
- FredPret 2y ago
  > There is an insane wealth gap. Your unexamined prior is that this is a bad and unsustainable thing. It was always thus. > People always seem to be stressed. They really aren't. Americans are extremely happy and relaxed compared to where I'm from. > We don’t even need to start on healthcare and housing and college tuition. I think we do. Healthcare in the US has more red tape and expense than would be optimal, but the actual outcomes are still good. Keep in mind some caveats: - US healthcare spend drives a ton of medical innovation that then benefits the rest of the world - North America is going through a Fentanyl crisis that's cutting life expectancies > Then there is gun violence. Women’s rights are going away slowly too. This is a problem but not with the economy.
  - BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
    Women's rights may be more of a problem with the economy than one thinks - pressure on those rights aren't necessarily just ideological. Zooming in on this one aspect within the bigger picture, at a country level you can shape the economy via controlling immigration (do we welcome brains? do we welcome labor?) and via controlling natality (do we need to make our own labor?). If a country is hostile to immigration or limits immigration to an elite, I can well imagine eroding women's rights for purely economical reasons - needing labourers the country is not willing to welcome from abroad. Could also be done with incentives instead of taking away rights but different debate. Womens' rights determine if/how/where women can contribute to the economy, and how easily.
- 2y ago
benji-york 2y ago
I'm not the OP, but I'm very curious why people are downvoting this comment. Is it that they don't agree that "the New World [...is...] much more welcoming [...of...] all sorts of productive folk"?
- hoppyhoppy2 2y ago
  >Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- samatman 2y ago
  About the downvoting per se, it has a way of canceling out. This is one of the reasons the guidelines ask that voting on the comments not be discussed: just because you see a good comment greyed out, doesn't mean it will end up that way. There's a faction of HN commenters who are somewhat reflexively anti-American, anti-capitalist, or both. In my experience they're also censorious by nature, and like to downvote and even flag comments which are perfectly polite, and simply express opinions they don't agree with. I consider the latter specifically to be very bad form, I vouch for comments which fit that profile almost daily now. This has been exacerbated by the recent election, which has, understandably, upset people.
  - aspenmayer 2y ago
    > simply express opinions they don't agree with Dang has said that downvoting for disagreement is allowed. Whether this is a good practice or not is probably a personal opinion. I don’t know how you would even correct for this if you wanted to. If someone is making normative statements especially, and you disagree, a downvote seems entirely appropriate?
    - samatman 2y ago
      I'm not sure how I could have phrased I consider the latter specifically to be very bad form any better? It's one thing to downvote a comment because you don't like it, flagging is quite another. There's a difference between downvoting something substantively wrong, fatuous and/or cantankerous, bad faith, and so on, and simply doing so to punish the sort of person one doesn't like for speaking their mind. That difference is subjective, but I know it when I see it. There's no need to police this, or any way to really, but I think rather poorly of such behavior and would be gratified if they would knock it off.
ericmcer 2y ago
I was lucky enough to be a computer nerd who landed in Silicon valley/San Francisco in 2012 and it was a pretty special place culturally. It was pretentious and idealistic and confused, but the atmosphere where everyone seemed to be building something and sharing ideas was pretty intoxicating. Probably felt similar to being in Hollywood back during that 1920-1950s period (except everyone was less attractive lol).
dayvid 2y ago
Yes, I've traveled to a good amount of countries and the overwhelming corruption or culture which doesn't support fair enterprise is soul crushing. You can say America has it to some extent, but in a lot of places you really don't have a chance at all unless you're born into the right family.
- FredPret 2y ago
  Travel is such an important part of a well-rounded education because it forces things into perspective. I’m glad it’s becoming cheaper. I dream of the day all kids can do it.
  - ronjakoi 2y ago
    Cheap travel is a horrible thing for the world. Mass tourism has destroyed a lot.
    - Wolfenstein98k 2y ago
      Another, less pleasant way to say this: You don't want everyone to travel - many people don't have a sense of respect and "light foot" that it takes to travel to foreign places without degrading or damaging them.
      - nradov 2y ago
        I want everyone to travel. It might take a while, but travel is one of the most effective ways to teach people how to have respect for others and behave better. How else will they ever learn? Tourists might be annoying but scolds, killjoys, and condescending elitists are far worse.
        Wolfenstein98k 2y ago
        Not everyone has to do everything. Not everyone wants to (Openness), or could reasonably do a good job of respecting the host culture and environment (Agreeableness and Conscientiousness).
prisonality 2y ago
Like you: I too - is part of said brain drain. Though, my reason - or rather: my litmus test, is much simpler. For me, it all comes down to drinkable / potable tap water. That's it. That's all I care.
- rrr_oh_man 2y ago
  > For me, it all comes down to drinkable / potable tap water. That's it. That's all I care. And water pressure. It’s a decent proxy for many things.

StefanBatory 2y ago

Culture aspect is way underrated. It's not only fact that in Western Europe I could earn a lot more. But also that I don't have to deal with massive corruption. I don't have to deal with feeling I have to be constantly on guard. I don't have to deal with failing education. I don't have to hide who I am in fear of being ostracized by society. (even if for that point we made a lot of progress - but still, why wait endlessly while I can get it right away somewhere else?)

namaria 2y ago
Culture is not the cause of development. It's the result. The complex human system always has a central area of development and an extended periphery. You can't have homogeneous development because development is the concentration of resources. Wherever these resources concentrate will have a privileged economy, and culture (because it can afford it) and it will develop a superiority complex. And it will keep moving. In 2100 when the center of the world economy has moved on from the US, the new center will have beautifully constructed narratives about how their culture is superior and their rise inevitable.
- StefanBatory 2y ago
  I live in a country where I am called rainbow disease by the prominent priests for being bi, and the previous de facto leader said that I'm only "Polish-speaking person" and not a Pole because I do not believe in God. Thing is, that while what you're saying could be true, from a perspective of a person living in it - I don't care.
  - namaria 2y ago
    I have no idea what point you're trying to make

dfkasdfksdf 2y ago

This is the more correct answer. It's also answers why developed nations became developed and undeveloped nations did not. The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior. That being said, I wouldn't use the US as some bastion of progress. Technically, we haven't progressed much since the 70s? 80s? outside of GDP going up, but that's just a number on a chart. Most of us today could go back to the 70s and live not much different than now (compared to the any earlier decade). It's mostly a side effect of being the world's reserve currency.

cardanome 2y ago
> The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior. Centuries prior they had a global slave trade going on. The wealth of the West is build on colonialism. Culture just reflects the underlying material conditions that people live in. There is nothing inherently superior about Western culture. Wealth is cumulative and first mover advantages are strong. And if anyone threatens the current hegemony, there is always the use of force. But yes, you are right there has been a stagnation since the 80s and things are slowly changing ins favor of countries like China and India.
- synecdoche 2y ago
  There is no basis for the claim that different things of some category would progress exactly the same given the same set of circumstances. Those different things, like culture, have significant impact on everything, including economic growth. I'm sure you can think of a culture or policy, which you consider backwards, and counterproductive. Well, there you go.
- FredPret 2y ago
  So in your mind, slaves picked cotton in the south, and next thing you know the US is a global superpower, and that’s all there is to it? Surely you can conceive of a more complex world than that?
  - throwaway0123_5 2y ago

akudha 2y ago

U.S is outperforming everyone else economically. At what cost though? And for how long? There is an insane wealth gap. People always seem to be stressed. There is plenty of food, but quality isn’t great. We don’t even need to start on healthcare and housing and college tuition. Then there is gun violence. Women’s rights are going away slowly too. Sure, developing countries have lots of problems too. I suppose each person has to decide what kind of problems they are ok dealing with? Sad part is - most of these problems are man made. Even sadder is that just a few dozen people seem to be the cause for most problems

FredPret 2y ago
> There is an insane wealth gap. Your unexamined prior is that this is a bad and unsustainable thing. It was always thus. > People always seem to be stressed. They really aren't. Americans are extremely happy and relaxed compared to where I'm from. > We don’t even need to start on healthcare and housing and college tuition. I think we do. Healthcare in the US has more red tape and expense than would be optimal, but the actual outcomes are still good. Keep in mind some caveats: - US healthcare spend drives a ton of medical innovation that then benefits the rest of the world - North America is going through a Fentanyl crisis that's cutting life expectancies > Then there is gun violence. Women’s rights are going away slowly too. This is a problem but not with the economy.
- BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
  Women's rights may be more of a problem with the economy than one thinks - pressure on those rights aren't necessarily just ideological. Zooming in on this one aspect within the bigger picture, at a country level you can shape the economy via controlling immigration (do we welcome brains? do we welcome labor?) and via controlling natality (do we need to make our own labor?). If a country is hostile to immigration or limits immigration to an elite, I can well imagine eroding women's rights for purely economical reasons - needing labourers the country is not willing to welcome from abroad. Could also be done with incentives instead of taking away rights but different debate. Womens' rights determine if/how/where women can contribute to the economy, and how easily.
2y ago

benji-york 2y ago

I'm not the OP, but I'm very curious why people are downvoting this comment. Is it that they don't agree that "the New World [...is...] much more welcoming [...of...] all sorts of productive folk"?

hoppyhoppy2 2y ago
>Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
samatman 2y ago
About the downvoting per se, it has a way of canceling out. This is one of the reasons the guidelines ask that voting on the comments not be discussed: just because you see a good comment greyed out, doesn't mean it will end up that way. There's a faction of HN commenters who are somewhat reflexively anti-American, anti-capitalist, or both. In my experience they're also censorious by nature, and like to downvote and even flag comments which are perfectly polite, and simply express opinions they don't agree with. I consider the latter specifically to be very bad form, I vouch for comments which fit that profile almost daily now. This has been exacerbated by the recent election, which has, understandably, upset people.
- aspenmayer 2y ago
  > simply express opinions they don't agree with Dang has said that downvoting for disagreement is allowed. Whether this is a good practice or not is probably a personal opinion. I don’t know how you would even correct for this if you wanted to. If someone is making normative statements especially, and you disagree, a downvote seems entirely appropriate?
  - samatman 2y ago
    I'm not sure how I could have phrased I consider the latter specifically to be very bad form any better? It's one thing to downvote a comment because you don't like it, flagging is quite another. There's a difference between downvoting something substantively wrong, fatuous and/or cantankerous, bad faith, and so on, and simply doing so to punish the sort of person one doesn't like for speaking their mind. That difference is subjective, but I know it when I see it. There's no need to police this, or any way to really, but I think rather poorly of such behavior and would be gratified if they would knock it off.

ericmcer 2y ago

I was lucky enough to be a computer nerd who landed in Silicon valley/San Francisco in 2012 and it was a pretty special place culturally. It was pretentious and idealistic and confused, but the atmosphere where everyone seemed to be building something and sharing ideas was pretty intoxicating. Probably felt similar to being in Hollywood back during that 1920-1950s period (except everyone was less attractive lol).

dayvid 2y ago

Yes, I've traveled to a good amount of countries and the overwhelming corruption or culture which doesn't support fair enterprise is soul crushing. You can say America has it to some extent, but in a lot of places you really don't have a chance at all unless you're born into the right family.

FredPret 2y ago
Travel is such an important part of a well-rounded education because it forces things into perspective. I’m glad it’s becoming cheaper. I dream of the day all kids can do it.
- ronjakoi 2y ago
  Cheap travel is a horrible thing for the world. Mass tourism has destroyed a lot.
  - Wolfenstein98k 2y ago
    Another, less pleasant way to say this: You don't want everyone to travel - many people don't have a sense of respect and "light foot" that it takes to travel to foreign places without degrading or damaging them.
    - nradov 2y ago
      I want everyone to travel. It might take a while, but travel is one of the most effective ways to teach people how to have respect for others and behave better. How else will they ever learn? Tourists might be annoying but scolds, killjoys, and condescending elitists are far worse.
      - Wolfenstein98k 2y ago
        Not everyone has to do everything. Not everyone wants to (Openness), or could reasonably do a good job of respecting the host culture and environment (Agreeableness and Conscientiousness).

prisonality 2y ago

Like you: I too - is part of said brain drain. Though, my reason - or rather: my litmus test, is much simpler. For me, it all comes down to drinkable / potable tap water. That's it. That's all I care.

rrr_oh_man 2y ago
> For me, it all comes down to drinkable / potable tap water. That's it. That's all I care. And water pressure. It’s a decent proxy for many things.