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I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my e

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

f1refly 2y ago
Maybe because PHEV are a really dumb idea? You're lugging around two complete powertrains the whole time, a massive waste of energy!
- kube-system 2y ago
  Not really. PHEVs are usually one-and-a-half drivetrains at most. They're almost never as complicated as a separate BEV and ICE drivetrains would be individually.
  - redwall_hp 2y ago
    They don't typically have a full transmission or CVT either. Taking the new hybrid Civic for example: it just has a basic planetary gearbox that handles forward, reverse and highway cruising. Any time you're not at highway cruising speed, it's just in the normal position where the electric motor drives it (the engine only functions as a generator). It's effectively an electric car with a small, far under provisioned in Civic terms, engine that comes on to top the battery up sometimes if regen braking isn't enough. At highway speeds, the gearbox has the engine drive. And since it's a less powerful engine, it will have better fuel economy than one that has to ever handle acceleration from a standstill. And the whole thing weighs about 3200-3400lb, far less than any electric vehicle. So you're "lugging" around less.
    - floxy 2y ago
      The "S" trim of the current Nissan Leaf (with the 40 kwh battery) weighs 3509 lbs. https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf
- sgerenser 2y ago
  PHEVs generally weigh much less than a full EV with equivalent range. Doesn’t seem very wasteful to me.
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    And you get a big energy win with regenerative braking. GP's argument can be countered with basically every hybrid getting better mileage than its ICE sibling in city traffic.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      The Prius gets up to 50 mpg on the highway too, much better than ICE cousins.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        How is that possible? What's it doing that ICE cars can't do on a highway?
        vundercind 2y ago
        I'd guess it has something to do with its unusual drivetrain. It can operate: 1) fully electric, 2) fully electric but with gas used in generator-mode to supply power to the electric drive train, 3) gas engine mechanically powering the wheels (like a normal ICE car). I'd expect it operates in mode 2 a lot when at highway speeds, but not accelerating.
        SoftTalker 2y ago
        I believe the Prius is either in mode 1 or 3. Never heard that it has a generator capability, unless newer models have changed?
        numpad0 2y ago
        Prius "eCVT" is a special planetary gearset that all gears are powered. ICE is connected to the planets, input and output has the alternator and traction motors. Difference in resistance between two motors is imparted to the ICE, achieving power mix and generation control. It's a really simple and clever solution. So much so that brain hurts to think about
- freeone3000 2y ago
  Or, getting at what is actually desired, a car that can be a wall-charged EV for in-town trips and daily commuting but can use the existing gasoline distribution network for long trips or in emergencies. We’re in a transition state, this isn’t an unreasonable ask.
- short_sells_poo 2y ago
  Nobody wants this, but in an imperfect world, one has to make suboptimal compromises. You can get an EV, and then have to deal with half a dozen barely competent charging networks each with their own donkey, slow and insecure app, their own quirks and pricing schemes, etc. For some, the tradeoff is worth it, for others it isn't. You can also get a PHEV, which could allow you to use one car for commuting purely on electric power - even if you are lugging around an entire ICE power train - and then also take the family out to the countryside over the weekend. Without the having to deal with a bunch of annoyed passangers when you are stuck midway through your journey and the charging station you are trying to use is giving you the massively helpeful error message of "Charging failed, please try again later".
  - some_random 2y ago
    I think you'll find most normal people find PHEVs extremely attractive propositions that are a perfect compromise between ICE and EVs.
    - short_sells_poo 2y ago
      I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a compromise. A pure EV would be much better if the charging infrastructure was great. If it isn't, then you need a compromise...
      - some_random 2y ago
        No, even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. There are other esoteric benefits of ICE but that's the one the vast majority of people are hung up on and that will likely not be fixed anytime soon.
        short_sells_poo 2y ago
        > Even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. That's just down to charging infrastructure no? Sure, there are physical limits to how much electricity one can move in a given time, but we are nowhere at those physical limits. So it's just down to infrastructure in the end. If there was infrastructure to quickly and reliably charge EVs, ICE would only have niche advantages.
- aoanevdus 2y ago
  Pure EVs also waste tons of energy, because they lug around a huge battery that you barely use for most trips. The battery pack in a Model Y weighs 1700 lbs and provides 330 miles of range. A RAV4 Prime (PHEV) has a 14.5 gallon gas tank, which provides 500 miles of range from 90 lbs of gas - in addition to the smaller 300 lb battery pack providing 42 miles range. The additional weight of the drivetrain components offsets the savings from not lugging around a huge battery. Overall, the vehicles end up with similar weight, but the RAV4 has much longer range. By default, the RAV4 prime runs on EV mode until the battery runs down. With both vehicles, you’re taking an efficiency hit on the average drive for having the option of taking longer trips. Of course, both vehicles are a big environmental win over old ICE cars, because they will move you more miles per carbon emitted. Which one works better for you depends on your use-case. If you want to lower the environmental impact if you commute even more, ride a bicycle or something.
lumost 2y ago
PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?
- harpiaharpyja 2y ago
  Is it two drive trains? I thought ideally PHEV would be like diesel-electric with electric motors supplying traction and a gas power plant supplying power.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Gears are more efficient (assuming you are not stupid in design) than an electric generator and motor. We cannot make gears that will do the job for a train - they wouldn't fit between the wheels while also doing the needed 90 degree turn to the engine. Once in a while someone makes such a car, but it is generally better to use a transmission.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  That's more than enough to cover the average worker's commute, especially as most of the time is spent stuck in traffic.
  - Kudos 2y ago
    That's not true, it's barely enough to get the average worker to their job https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-travel-time-to-work-rises.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...
    - fwip 2y ago
      > Among this group, those leaving between 6:00 a.m. and 6:29 a.m. reported the longest average travel time to work at 32.8 minutes. So, if "30 minutes" was actually how you measured range (and not in miles), the average worker in the longest group would burn fuel for 3 minutes, instead of 33 minutes. This is 90% less fuel than a traditional hybrid car would use in the same time.
yurishimo 2y ago
They aren't more widely supported because they are more expensive and more complicated to manufacture with a higher potential for more stuff to go wrong. Until the engine that powers a PHEV is nearly drop-in ready for a replacement (for example, going to your local auto parts store and buying a replacement like a battery) then companies need to have service technicians and production lines to support these "engines" (they're fancy generators at this point). However, that would also require automakers to standardize to some degree or potentially cannibalize their own business. We've already seen this with batteries/panels in the consumer space in regards to solar. I can buy whatever packs of cells I want, and as long as the voltages match up, I can mix and match to my hearts content. If I can only get service for my Jeep PHEV from Jeep because the drivetrain is a bespoke black box and parts are impossible to get, then we'll keep seeing customers continuing to opt for traditional gas vehicles or full EVs. PHEV is just too complicated to support long term (imo). If 90% of your trips can be covered by a normal EV, then I would make the argument that you should buy one of those (secondhand even!) and then rent a vehicle for the instances where you need AWD. The fuel and tax savings should likely make up for it in the long run. For that one year that you don't go skiing in the mountains, then you're coming out on top financially!
- toast0 2y ago
  > PHEV is just too complicated to support long term (imo). PHEV isn't that much more complex than an ICE. The transaxle is typically mechanically simpler, and you have two electric motor/generators instead of an electric motor (starter) and an electric generator (alternator). There's a big battery you need to find room for, and the power wiring. And the engine control is significantly different, but if it doesn't work, swap the ECU works as well for an ICE and PHEV.
  - adolph 2y ago
    >> PHEV is just too complicated to support long term (imo). > PHEV isn't that much more complex than an ICE. I've been an owner/operator of two Gen3 Prii for 14 years and agree in practice even though in theory I would agree with the complexity argument. The one maintenance hit for both was for the vacuum pump needed for brakes/etc because the car cannot assume the engine is always running. Toyota has moved to hybrid only for the Camry and Sienna. This is an indicator to me that technology maturity and US manufacturing is where it needs to be for broad adoption.
Kudos 2y ago
From what I've read most PHEVs tend to have really bad batteries that are unreliable, complicated and expensive to replace. It makes sense that they cut corners when there's a whole other powertrain to mask it.
- unregistereddev 2y ago
  Is there somewhere I can find more info on this? Car enthusiast here who is genuinely interested in learning. My impressions had been that it largely mirrors the EV market: A few early PHEV models (such as the BMW i3) had poor battery management leading to unreliable battery packs. This was fixed in subsequent generations and is not a problem unless you are scraping the bottom of the used market. That's much the same as how EV batteries are generally reliable unless you buy early versions of certain problematic models (particularly the Nissan Leaf).
  - MaKey 2y ago
    > My impressions had been that it largely mirrors the EV market: A few early PHEV models (such as the BMW i3) had poor battery management leading to unreliable battery packs. BMW i3 owner here. The i3 never had such issues and has been praised for its overall great engineering (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjPIuLz5VFI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjPIuLz5VFI and https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginners-guide/ https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginn...). It is also not a PHEV but an EV that had an option for a range extender.
  - Kudos 2y ago
    These guys do a lot of work on ICE, EVs and Hybrids, scroll to the end where they discuss Hybrids https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginners-guide/ https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginn...
- numpad0 2y ago
  It's Toyota cheaping out as always. They put a 1.5kWh NiMH pack in the trunk, and charge $5k for replacement. That's almost a big power bank capacity, and using that small of a battery strains it too. Cost for enclosures and control circuits don't scale with capacity so dollar/kWh figure is atrocious. It works. People hates it. The issues with it are mostly theoretical or matters of preferences. That's hallmark Toyota, isn't it...
conradev 2y ago
The BYD Shark is ~$60k, but it’s being only available in Brazil and Australia. Ford is making a Ranger Sport PHEV, but only for Australia and Europe. CATL launched its Freevoy hybrid battery, competing with BYD. It’s certainly being worked on, but not in the US quite yet.
wil421 2y ago
BMW makes an PHEV X5 50e with about 30ish miles range and the B58 straight six. Most other options get a dinky little engine. The 5 series also has one that is just making its way to the US, 550e. Typed this before I saw that you said expensive. I’ll leave my comment anyway.
idontwantthis 2y ago
I haven’t seen one that is cost competitive with its model’s regular hybrid version. The EV adds thousands of dollars, but only saves you about $3 per day in gas. For example, The Kia niro is $9k more for phev and saves you 0.6 gallons of gas per day so it would take over 10 years for the cost to balance out. The funny thing is, the more efficient the gas engine is, the less gas the phev can save you.

f1refly 2y ago

Maybe because PHEV are a really dumb idea? You're lugging around two complete powertrains the whole time, a massive waste of energy!

kube-system 2y ago
Not really. PHEVs are usually one-and-a-half drivetrains at most. They're almost never as complicated as a separate BEV and ICE drivetrains would be individually.
- redwall_hp 2y ago
  They don't typically have a full transmission or CVT either. Taking the new hybrid Civic for example: it just has a basic planetary gearbox that handles forward, reverse and highway cruising. Any time you're not at highway cruising speed, it's just in the normal position where the electric motor drives it (the engine only functions as a generator). It's effectively an electric car with a small, far under provisioned in Civic terms, engine that comes on to top the battery up sometimes if regen braking isn't enough. At highway speeds, the gearbox has the engine drive. And since it's a less powerful engine, it will have better fuel economy than one that has to ever handle acceleration from a standstill. And the whole thing weighs about 3200-3400lb, far less than any electric vehicle. So you're "lugging" around less.
  - floxy 2y ago
    The "S" trim of the current Nissan Leaf (with the 40 kwh battery) weighs 3509 lbs. https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf
sgerenser 2y ago
PHEVs generally weigh much less than a full EV with equivalent range. Doesn’t seem very wasteful to me.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  And you get a big energy win with regenerative braking. GP's argument can be countered with basically every hybrid getting better mileage than its ICE sibling in city traffic.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    The Prius gets up to 50 mpg on the highway too, much better than ICE cousins.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      How is that possible? What's it doing that ICE cars can't do on a highway?
      - vundercind 2y ago
        I'd guess it has something to do with its unusual drivetrain. It can operate: 1) fully electric, 2) fully electric but with gas used in generator-mode to supply power to the electric drive train, 3) gas engine mechanically powering the wheels (like a normal ICE car). I'd expect it operates in mode 2 a lot when at highway speeds, but not accelerating.
        SoftTalker 2y ago
        I believe the Prius is either in mode 1 or 3. Never heard that it has a generator capability, unless newer models have changed?
        numpad0 2y ago
        Prius "eCVT" is a special planetary gearset that all gears are powered. ICE is connected to the planets, input and output has the alternator and traction motors. Difference in resistance between two motors is imparted to the ICE, achieving power mix and generation control. It's a really simple and clever solution. So much so that brain hurts to think about
freeone3000 2y ago
Or, getting at what is actually desired, a car that can be a wall-charged EV for in-town trips and daily commuting but can use the existing gasoline distribution network for long trips or in emergencies. We’re in a transition state, this isn’t an unreasonable ask.
short_sells_poo 2y ago
Nobody wants this, but in an imperfect world, one has to make suboptimal compromises. You can get an EV, and then have to deal with half a dozen barely competent charging networks each with their own donkey, slow and insecure app, their own quirks and pricing schemes, etc. For some, the tradeoff is worth it, for others it isn't. You can also get a PHEV, which could allow you to use one car for commuting purely on electric power - even if you are lugging around an entire ICE power train - and then also take the family out to the countryside over the weekend. Without the having to deal with a bunch of annoyed passangers when you are stuck midway through your journey and the charging station you are trying to use is giving you the massively helpeful error message of "Charging failed, please try again later".
- some_random 2y ago
  I think you'll find most normal people find PHEVs extremely attractive propositions that are a perfect compromise between ICE and EVs.
  - short_sells_poo 2y ago
    I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a compromise. A pure EV would be much better if the charging infrastructure was great. If it isn't, then you need a compromise...
    - some_random 2y ago
      No, even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. There are other esoteric benefits of ICE but that's the one the vast majority of people are hung up on and that will likely not be fixed anytime soon.
      - short_sells_poo 2y ago
        > Even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. That's just down to charging infrastructure no? Sure, there are physical limits to how much electricity one can move in a given time, but we are nowhere at those physical limits. So it's just down to infrastructure in the end. If there was infrastructure to quickly and reliably charge EVs, ICE would only have niche advantages.
aoanevdus 2y ago
Pure EVs also waste tons of energy, because they lug around a huge battery that you barely use for most trips. The battery pack in a Model Y weighs 1700 lbs and provides 330 miles of range. A RAV4 Prime (PHEV) has a 14.5 gallon gas tank, which provides 500 miles of range from 90 lbs of gas - in addition to the smaller 300 lb battery pack providing 42 miles range. The additional weight of the drivetrain components offsets the savings from not lugging around a huge battery. Overall, the vehicles end up with similar weight, but the RAV4 has much longer range. By default, the RAV4 prime runs on EV mode until the battery runs down. With both vehicles, you’re taking an efficiency hit on the average drive for having the option of taking longer trips. Of course, both vehicles are a big environmental win over old ICE cars, because they will move you more miles per carbon emitted. Which one works better for you depends on your use-case. If you want to lower the environmental impact if you commute even more, ride a bicycle or something.

lumost 2y ago

PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

harpiaharpyja 2y ago
Is it two drive trains? I thought ideally PHEV would be like diesel-electric with electric motors supplying traction and a gas power plant supplying power.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Gears are more efficient (assuming you are not stupid in design) than an electric generator and motor. We cannot make gears that will do the job for a train - they wouldn't fit between the wheels while also doing the needed 90 degree turn to the engine. Once in a while someone makes such a car, but it is generally better to use a transmission.
mschuster91 2y ago
That's more than enough to cover the average worker's commute, especially as most of the time is spent stuck in traffic.
- Kudos 2y ago
  That's not true, it's barely enough to get the average worker to their job https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-travel-time-to-work-rises.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...
  - fwip 2y ago
    > Among this group, those leaving between 6:00 a.m. and 6:29 a.m. reported the longest average travel time to work at 32.8 minutes. So, if "30 minutes" was actually how you measured range (and not in miles), the average worker in the longest group would burn fuel for 3 minutes, instead of 33 minutes. This is 90% less fuel than a traditional hybrid car would use in the same time.

yurishimo 2y ago

They aren't more widely supported because they are more expensive and more complicated to manufacture with a higher potential for more stuff to go wrong. Until the engine that powers a PHEV is nearly drop-in ready for a replacement (for example, going to your local auto parts store and buying a replacement like a battery) then companies need to have service technicians and production lines to support these "engines" (they're fancy generators at this point). However, that would also require automakers to standardize to some degree or potentially cannibalize their own business. We've already seen this with batteries/panels in the consumer space in regards to solar. I can buy whatever packs of cells I want, and as long as the voltages match up, I can mix and match to my hearts content. If I can only get service for my Jeep PHEV from Jeep because the drivetrain is a bespoke black box and parts are impossible to get, then we'll keep seeing customers continuing to opt for traditional gas vehicles or full EVs. PHEV is just too complicated to support long term (imo). If 90% of your trips can be covered by a normal EV, then I would make the argument that you should buy one of those (secondhand even!) and then rent a vehicle for the instances where you need AWD. The fuel and tax savings should likely make up for it in the long run. For that one year that you don't go skiing in the mountains, then you're coming out on top financially!

toast0 2y ago
> PHEV is just too complicated to support long term (imo). PHEV isn't that much more complex than an ICE. The transaxle is typically mechanically simpler, and you have two electric motor/generators instead of an electric motor (starter) and an electric generator (alternator). There's a big battery you need to find room for, and the power wiring. And the engine control is significantly different, but if it doesn't work, swap the ECU works as well for an ICE and PHEV.
- adolph 2y ago
  >> PHEV is just too complicated to support long term (imo). > PHEV isn't that much more complex than an ICE. I've been an owner/operator of two Gen3 Prii for 14 years and agree in practice even though in theory I would agree with the complexity argument. The one maintenance hit for both was for the vacuum pump needed for brakes/etc because the car cannot assume the engine is always running. Toyota has moved to hybrid only for the Camry and Sienna. This is an indicator to me that technology maturity and US manufacturing is where it needs to be for broad adoption.

Kudos 2y ago

From what I've read most PHEVs tend to have really bad batteries that are unreliable, complicated and expensive to replace. It makes sense that they cut corners when there's a whole other powertrain to mask it.

unregistereddev 2y ago
Is there somewhere I can find more info on this? Car enthusiast here who is genuinely interested in learning. My impressions had been that it largely mirrors the EV market: A few early PHEV models (such as the BMW i3) had poor battery management leading to unreliable battery packs. This was fixed in subsequent generations and is not a problem unless you are scraping the bottom of the used market. That's much the same as how EV batteries are generally reliable unless you buy early versions of certain problematic models (particularly the Nissan Leaf).
- MaKey 2y ago
  > My impressions had been that it largely mirrors the EV market: A few early PHEV models (such as the BMW i3) had poor battery management leading to unreliable battery packs. BMW i3 owner here. The i3 never had such issues and has been praised for its overall great engineering (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjPIuLz5VFI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjPIuLz5VFI and https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginners-guide/ https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginn...). It is also not a PHEV but an EV that had an option for a range extender.
- Kudos 2y ago
  These guys do a lot of work on ICE, EVs and Hybrids, scroll to the end where they discuss Hybrids https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginners-guide/ https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginn...
numpad0 2y ago
It's Toyota cheaping out as always. They put a 1.5kWh NiMH pack in the trunk, and charge $5k for replacement. That's almost a big power bank capacity, and using that small of a battery strains it too. Cost for enclosures and control circuits don't scale with capacity so dollar/kWh figure is atrocious. It works. People hates it. The issues with it are mostly theoretical or matters of preferences. That's hallmark Toyota, isn't it...

conradev 2y ago

The BYD Shark is ~$60k, but it’s being only available in Brazil and Australia. Ford is making a Ranger Sport PHEV, but only for Australia and Europe. CATL launched its Freevoy hybrid battery, competing with BYD. It’s certainly being worked on, but not in the US quite yet.

wil421 2y ago

BMW makes an PHEV X5 50e with about 30ish miles range and the B58 straight six. Most other options get a dinky little engine. The 5 series also has one that is just making its way to the US, 550e. Typed this before I saw that you said expensive. I’ll leave my comment anyway.

idontwantthis 2y ago

I haven’t seen one that is cost competitive with its model’s regular hybrid version. The EV adds thousands of dollars, but only saves you about $3 per day in gas. For example, The Kia niro is $9k more for phev and saves you 0.6 gallons of gas per day so it would take over 10 years for the cost to balance out. The funny thing is, the more efficient the gas engine is, the less gas the phev can save you.