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It also reduces the knowledge needed. I don't particularly care about learning how to setup and configure a web extension from scratch. With LLM, I can get 90%

by Sakos 2y ago

It also reduces the knowledge needed. I don't particularly care about learning how to setup and configure a web extension from scratch. With LLM, I can get 90% of that working in minutes, then focus on the parts that I am interested in. As somebody with ADHD, it was primarily all that supplementary, tangential knowledge which felt like an insurmountable mountain to me and made it impossible to actually try all the ideas I'd had over the years. I'm so much more productive now that I don't have to always get into the weeds for every little thing, which could easily delay progress for hours or even days. I can pick and choose the parts I feel are important to me.

imiric 2y ago
> It also reduces the knowledge needed. I don't particularly care about learning how to setup and configure a web extension from scratch. With LLM, I can get 90% of that working in minutes, then focus on the parts that I am interested in. Eh, I would argue that the apparent lower knowledge requirement is an illusion. These tools produce non-working code more often than not (OpenAI's flagship models are not even correct 50% of the time[1]), so you still have to read, understand and debug their output. If you've ever participated in a code review, you'll know that doing that takes much more effort than actually writing the code yourself. Not only that, but relying on these tools handicaps you into not actually learning any of the technologies you're working with. If you ever need to troubleshoot or debug something, you'll be forced to use an AI tool for help again, and good luck if that's a critical production issue. If instead you take the time to read the documentation and understand how to use the technology, perhaps even with the _assistance_ of an AI tool, then it might take you more time and effort upfront, but this will pay itself off in the long run by making you more proficient and useful if and when you need to work on it again. I seriously don't understand the value proposition of the tools in the current AI hype cycle. They are fun and useful to an extent, but are severely limited and downright unhelpful at building and maintaining an actual product. [1]: https://openai.com/index/introducing-simpleqa/ https://openai.com/index/introducing-simpleqa/
- Robotenomics 2y ago
  Things have improved considerably over the last 3 months. Claude with cursor.ai is certainly over 50%
  - kbaker 2y ago
    Where the libraries are new/not known to the LLM yet, I just go find the most similar examples in the docs and chuck them in the context window too (easy to do with aider.) Then say 'fix it'. Does an incredible job.
  - imiric 2y ago
    I haven't used cursor.ai, but Claude 3.5 Sonnet definitely has the issues I'm talking about. Maybe I'm not great at prompting, but this is far from an exact science. I always ask it specific things I need help with, making sure to provide sufficient detail, and don't ask it to produce mountains of code. I've had it generate code that not only hallucinates APIs, but has trivial bugs like referencing undefined variables. How this can scale beyond a few lines of code to produce an actually working application is beyond me. But apparently I'm in the minority here, since people are actually using these tools successfully for just that, so more power to them.
    - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
      I think it really depends on the language. It generates pretty crap but working python code, but even for SQL it generates really weird crummy code that often doesn't solve the problem. I find it really helpful where I don't know a library very well but can assess if the output works. More generally, I think you need to give it pretty constrained problems if you're working on anything relatively complicated.
- Sakos 2y ago
  All the projects I've been able to start and make progress in in the past year vs the ten years before that are substantive enough proof for me that you're wrong in pretty much all of your arguments. My direct experience proves statements like "the lower knowledge requirement is an illusion" and "it takes much more effort to review code than to write it" wrong. I do code reviews all the time. I write code all the time. I've had AI help me with my projects and I've reviewed and refactored that code. You're quite simply wrong. And I don't understand why you're so eager to argue that my direct experience is wrong, as if you're trying to gaslight me. It's quite honestly mystifying to me. It's simply not the case that we need to be experts in every single part of a software project. Not for personal projects and not for professional ones either. So it doesn't make any sense to me not to use AI if I've directly proven to myself that it can improve my productivity, my understanding and my knowledge. > If you ever need to troubleshoot or debug something, you'll be forced to use an AI tool for help again This is proof to me that you haven't used AI much. Because AI has helped me understand things much quicker and with much less friction than I've ever been able to before. And I have often been able to solve things AI has had issues with, even if it's a topic I have zero experience with, through the interaction with the AI. At some point, being able to make progress (and how that affects the learning process) trumps this perfect ideal of the programmer who figures out everything on their own through tedious, mind-numbing long hours solving problems that are at best tangential to the problems they were actually trying to solve hours ago. Frankly, I'm tired of not being able to do any of my personal projects because of all the issues I've mentioned before. And I'm tired of people like you saying I'm doing it wrong, DESPITE ME NOT BEING ABLE TO DO IT AT ALL BEFORE. Honestly, fuck this.

by Sakos 2y ago

imiric 2y ago

> It also reduces the knowledge needed. I don't particularly care about learning how to setup and configure a web extension from scratch. With LLM, I can get 90% of that working in minutes, then focus on the parts that I am interested in. Eh, I would argue that the apparent lower knowledge requirement is an illusion. These tools produce non-working code more often than not (OpenAI's flagship models are not even correct 50% of the time[1]), so you still have to read, understand and debug their output. If you've ever participated in a code review, you'll know that doing that takes much more effort than actually writing the code yourself. Not only that, but relying on these tools handicaps you into not actually learning any of the technologies you're working with. If you ever need to troubleshoot or debug something, you'll be forced to use an AI tool for help again, and good luck if that's a critical production issue. If instead you take the time to read the documentation and understand how to use the technology, perhaps even with the _assistance_ of an AI tool, then it might take you more time and effort upfront, but this will pay itself off in the long run by making you more proficient and useful if and when you need to work on it again. I seriously don't understand the value proposition of the tools in the current AI hype cycle. They are fun and useful to an extent, but are severely limited and downright unhelpful at building and maintaining an actual product. [1]: https://openai.com/index/introducing-simpleqa/ https://openai.com/index/introducing-simpleqa/

Robotenomics 2y ago
Things have improved considerably over the last 3 months. Claude with cursor.ai is certainly over 50%
- kbaker 2y ago
  Where the libraries are new/not known to the LLM yet, I just go find the most similar examples in the docs and chuck them in the context window too (easy to do with aider.) Then say 'fix it'. Does an incredible job.
- imiric 2y ago
  I haven't used cursor.ai, but Claude 3.5 Sonnet definitely has the issues I'm talking about. Maybe I'm not great at prompting, but this is far from an exact science. I always ask it specific things I need help with, making sure to provide sufficient detail, and don't ask it to produce mountains of code. I've had it generate code that not only hallucinates APIs, but has trivial bugs like referencing undefined variables. How this can scale beyond a few lines of code to produce an actually working application is beyond me. But apparently I'm in the minority here, since people are actually using these tools successfully for just that, so more power to them.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    I think it really depends on the language. It generates pretty crap but working python code, but even for SQL it generates really weird crummy code that often doesn't solve the problem. I find it really helpful where I don't know a library very well but can assess if the output works. More generally, I think you need to give it pretty constrained problems if you're working on anything relatively complicated.
Sakos 2y ago
All the projects I've been able to start and make progress in in the past year vs the ten years before that are substantive enough proof for me that you're wrong in pretty much all of your arguments. My direct experience proves statements like "the lower knowledge requirement is an illusion" and "it takes much more effort to review code than to write it" wrong. I do code reviews all the time. I write code all the time. I've had AI help me with my projects and I've reviewed and refactored that code. You're quite simply wrong. And I don't understand why you're so eager to argue that my direct experience is wrong, as if you're trying to gaslight me. It's quite honestly mystifying to me. It's simply not the case that we need to be experts in every single part of a software project. Not for personal projects and not for professional ones either. So it doesn't make any sense to me not to use AI if I've directly proven to myself that it can improve my productivity, my understanding and my knowledge. > If you ever need to troubleshoot or debug something, you'll be forced to use an AI tool for help again This is proof to me that you haven't used AI much. Because AI has helped me understand things much quicker and with much less friction than I've ever been able to before. And I have often been able to solve things AI has had issues with, even if it's a topic I have zero experience with, through the interaction with the AI. At some point, being able to make progress (and how that affects the learning process) trumps this perfect ideal of the programmer who figures out everything on their own through tedious, mind-numbing long hours solving problems that are at best tangential to the problems they were actually trying to solve hours ago. Frankly, I'm tired of not being able to do any of my personal projects because of all the issues I've mentioned before. And I'm tired of people like you saying I'm doing it wrong, DESPITE ME NOT BEING ABLE TO DO IT AT ALL BEFORE. Honestly, fuck this.