3 ms·

There's something to be said for a dictatorship that at the very least thinks climate change is real.

by lasc4r 2y ago

chii 2y ago
The impetus is more to ensure people don't get pollution in the big cities (which indirectly helps with climate change, but that was never the real goal). Not that this is a problem.
pclmulqdq 2y ago
Air quality issues in Beijing have nothing to do with climate change. China is not acting as though they care about CO2 emissions at all.
feedforward 2y ago
Dictatorship of the proletariat
- Animats 2y ago
  A few decades ago, a French minister was being interviewed on US TV about the French nuclear power program. He was asked how France had managed to get all their nuclear plants approved and built. He said, "We had a vote in the Chamber of Deputies. I understand you do things differently in America."
Yeul 2y ago
We've been conditioned to think democracy is the perfect form of government but why did people vote for Trump? Why in my country does less than 50% of the voters show up for elections? The masses just want food and security.
- axpvms 2y ago
  What conditioning? I've always heard it described as the "least bad" form of government. It definitely beats having a communist dictatorship though.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    "Vox Populi, Vox Dei": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Populi%2C_Vox_Dei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Populi%2C_Vox_Dei While I personally think of democracy as "the worst except for everything else we've tried", there's plenty who speak as if it's tautologically the best.
    - jlkuester7 2y ago
      In the historical context I would see "Vox Populi, Vox Dei" as intentionally juxtaposed against the "Divine Right of Kings" (the leading political philosophy in Europe for the last few thousand years). I think there is a TON of interesting discussion to be had on the best ways to _implement_ democracy, but locating the source of political power directly in the people who are governed seems like a pretty solid idea to me... I have not been able to come up with anything better.
  - quintushoratius 2y ago
    The problem with giving people choices is that sometimes they make the wrong choice.
    - vacuity 2y ago
      Indeed. Democracy is "least bad" because it at least allows people to choose, but don't be surprised if they make the wrong choice. Evidently one problem outweighs the other, and for advocates for democracy it's that the latter issue is outweighed (the former is that the people have no choice, this is people making the wrong choice). If men were angels, a nominally totalitarian government could be absolutely ideal.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  The US is rated as an "flawed democracy" and not a "full democracy" for the last decade by the Economist Intelligence Unit (an offshoot of the Magazine that published this article). https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-america-is-a-flawed-democracy https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-amer... That would be my guess as to both why Trump got elected and why voting isn't very popular.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >That would be my guess as to both why Trump got elected and why voting isn't very popular. A turnout of 63.5% isn't popular? Even compared to past elections it's the second highest turnout in the past 3 decades. The highest was in 2020.
    - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
      First past the post systems generally have lower turnout than proportional systems. Even record turnout for the US isn't very high in international terms. And if that record turnout is to support and/or oppose a candidate that seeks to burn the whole system down and gets votes due to the system not reflecting voters priorities for a while then it further supports my theory.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > record turnout for the US isn't very high in international terms Who are you comparing it to? The U.S. is middle of the pack in the OECD [1]. The highest-turnout countries are Equitorial Guinea, Rwanda and Turkmenistan [2]. None are democracies. [1] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/reg_glance-2009-35-en.pdf?expires=1731776538&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=DF2B309569EB38D4219B57FE1ABC5C35 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/reg_glance-2009-35-e... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/voter-turnout-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/voter-tur...
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- meiraleal 2y ago
  > The masses just want food and security. sure, but half of the country believes that's achieved with some measures and the other half believe those measures are the cause of the problems. A dictatorship doesn't change that, you'll only have half of the country incapable of voting for a change.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  >We've been conditioned That's a very interesting phrase to use here.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  Either you live in a very different bubble, or you are building a strawman to demolish. I never even heard anybody claiming that democracy is perfect form of government. People in democratic countries usually accept that democracy is messy. The real killer app of democracy is the ability to change leaders without death or bloodshed. Of course it results in fewer big projects being built (though the US was very good in building things like Apollo or the Interstate System, once - it is mostly environmental regulations that get in the way now, and not pure democracy). But the stereotypical danger of autocracy is that its big projects will be a useless money sink (like this [0]), or even destructive. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Monument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Monument
obscurette 2y ago
China just builds any energy sources it possibly can.

There's something to be said for a dictatorship that at the very least thinks climate change is real.

by lasc4r 2y ago

There's something to be said for a dictatorship that at the very least thinks climate change is real.

chii 2y ago

The impetus is more to ensure people don't get pollution in the big cities (which indirectly helps with climate change, but that was never the real goal). Not that this is a problem.

pclmulqdq 2y ago

Air quality issues in Beijing have nothing to do with climate change. China is not acting as though they care about CO2 emissions at all.

feedforward 2y ago

Dictatorship of the proletariat

Animats 2y ago
A few decades ago, a French minister was being interviewed on US TV about the French nuclear power program. He was asked how France had managed to get all their nuclear plants approved and built. He said, "We had a vote in the Chamber of Deputies. I understand you do things differently in America."

Yeul 2y ago

We've been conditioned to think democracy is the perfect form of government but why did people vote for Trump? Why in my country does less than 50% of the voters show up for elections? The masses just want food and security.

axpvms 2y ago
What conditioning? I've always heard it described as the "least bad" form of government. It definitely beats having a communist dictatorship though.
- ben_w 2y ago
  "Vox Populi, Vox Dei": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Populi%2C_Vox_Dei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Populi%2C_Vox_Dei While I personally think of democracy as "the worst except for everything else we've tried", there's plenty who speak as if it's tautologically the best.
  - jlkuester7 2y ago
    In the historical context I would see "Vox Populi, Vox Dei" as intentionally juxtaposed against the "Divine Right of Kings" (the leading political philosophy in Europe for the last few thousand years). I think there is a TON of interesting discussion to be had on the best ways to _implement_ democracy, but locating the source of political power directly in the people who are governed seems like a pretty solid idea to me... I have not been able to come up with anything better.
- quintushoratius 2y ago
  The problem with giving people choices is that sometimes they make the wrong choice.
  - vacuity 2y ago
    Indeed. Democracy is "least bad" because it at least allows people to choose, but don't be surprised if they make the wrong choice. Evidently one problem outweighs the other, and for advocates for democracy it's that the latter issue is outweighed (the former is that the people have no choice, this is people making the wrong choice). If men were angels, a nominally totalitarian government could be absolutely ideal.
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
The US is rated as an "flawed democracy" and not a "full democracy" for the last decade by the Economist Intelligence Unit (an offshoot of the Magazine that published this article). https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-america-is-a-flawed-democracy https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-amer... That would be my guess as to both why Trump got elected and why voting isn't very popular.
- gruez 2y ago
  >That would be my guess as to both why Trump got elected and why voting isn't very popular. A turnout of 63.5% isn't popular? Even compared to past elections it's the second highest turnout in the past 3 decades. The highest was in 2020.
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    First past the post systems generally have lower turnout than proportional systems. Even record turnout for the US isn't very high in international terms. And if that record turnout is to support and/or oppose a candidate that seeks to burn the whole system down and gets votes due to the system not reflecting voters priorities for a while then it further supports my theory.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > record turnout for the US isn't very high in international terms Who are you comparing it to? The U.S. is middle of the pack in the OECD [1]. The highest-turnout countries are Equitorial Guinea, Rwanda and Turkmenistan [2]. None are democracies. [1] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/reg_glance-2009-35-en.pdf?expires=1731776538&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=DF2B309569EB38D4219B57FE1ABC5C35 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/reg_glance-2009-35-e... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/voter-turnout-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/voter-tur...
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
meiraleal 2y ago
> The masses just want food and security. sure, but half of the country believes that's achieved with some measures and the other half believe those measures are the cause of the problems. A dictatorship doesn't change that, you'll only have half of the country incapable of voting for a change.
BobaFloutist 2y ago
>We've been conditioned That's a very interesting phrase to use here.
inglor_cz 2y ago
Either you live in a very different bubble, or you are building a strawman to demolish. I never even heard anybody claiming that democracy is perfect form of government. People in democratic countries usually accept that democracy is messy. The real killer app of democracy is the ability to change leaders without death or bloodshed. Of course it results in fewer big projects being built (though the US was very good in building things like Apollo or the Interstate System, once - it is mostly environmental regulations that get in the way now, and not pure democracy). But the stereotypical danger of autocracy is that its big projects will be a useless money sink (like this [0]), or even destructive. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Monument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Monument

obscurette 2y ago

China just builds any energy sources it possibly can.