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Sounds like a perfect environment to make games. No budget or schedule pressure, virtually limitless resources so the staff can strive to make art with love an

Sounds like a perfect environment to make games. No budget or schedule pressure, virtually limitless resources so the staff can strive to make art with love and without the corruption of chasing a bottom line. The entire media industry on almost every format is chasing nostalgia because they refuse to recreate the environment that made endearing stories and experiences in the first place.

chii 2y ago
> virtually limitless resources so the staff can strive to make art with love and without the corruption of chasing a bottom line. which means they have no obligation to ship. And so it is with the valve-time, they never shipped. Some pressure (monetary usually) is required. Not to mention that "strive to make art" is not a commercially viable objective - the owners of steam will basically be operating a charity for these artists.
- justinrubek 2y ago
  Obligation to ship is overrated. Not everything has to be made in a crunch time marathon. There are lots of avenues to be explored without the constant pressure to perform. I think it's a good thing if they take their time crafting things.
  - account42 2y ago
    Sounds good in theory but doesn't usually work out in practice. In the real world, art benefits from restrictions.
- willis936 2y ago
  >the owners of steam will basically be operating a charity for these artists If that's what it takes to make something worth playing, then so be it. Was Bungie in its day a charity? Or did they just get it? 20 years later the magic is gone and Microsoft is desperately trying to figure out how to make the goose lay an egg. As long as they're optimizing quarterly reports they'll never get there.
  - account42 2y ago
    Too bad for you (and me) that it's not us deciding this but Gabe and he prefers micro transactions, loot boxes and other profit schemes over art.
Ekaros 2y ago
Look at Star Citizen on other end... Too much resources can lead to endless scope creep, moving targets and potentially never actually shipping anything. Right constraints make things happen.
- ascagnel_ 2y ago
  I think that's on the game's director, Chris Roberts, because it's not the only time it happened. Roberts was the lead on Digital Anvil's "Freelancer", until the publisher (Microsoft), frustrated at the scope creep and protracted dev cycle, bought out the studio, demoted Roberts, and cut features so they could ship the thing.
BlueTemplar 2y ago
That's only the case if you are so blinded by advertising that you don't see the innovations happening in the low(er) budget media.
- willis936 2y ago
  Not at all. Where are the low and mid budget movies? Where are the games publishers on low budget games? Art as a business has transitioned to investor gambling rather than having any thought for the quality of the product. That's what I take issue with. Sure single person self-funded passion projects exist. They always have and they always will. And sure what one person can do is more than they ever could in the past. It's still not the same as something that's forged by a team of visionaries each with unique backgrounds and skillsets. Frost makes the point more well spoken and stylish than me often. https://youtu.be/gZffFoQekcc https://youtu.be/gZffFoQekcc
  - BlueTemplar 2y ago
    > Where are the low and mid budget movies? At Cannes and your local 'art' cinema ? To be fair, I don't watch movies much, but I do still go to these sometimes. > Where are the games publishers on low budget games? Who said anything about publishers ? (And Valve dumped theirs as soon as they could.) > Sure single person self-funded passion projects exist. They always have and they always will. And sure what one person can do is more than they ever could in the past. It's still not the same as something that's forged by a team of visionaries each with unique backgrounds and skillsets. Ok, I have no idea what you're talking about, are you "no-true-scotsmanning" here ? We have a great recent example : "Factorio (: Space Age)", which started as a one-person idea, took form as a 3-person company, got after release a 20k€ Indiegogo funding, then blazed a trail of success over the next 12 years, now with something like 5 million sales for the base game and a 30 person company. How is that not "a team of visionaries each with unique backgrounds and skillset" ?! Or the amateurs at Spring-Recoil / Zero-K / BAR, which show how you can do that even better than the professional, commercial RTS. Or indeed one person projects like Shadow Empire (with some publisher support), which show how you can make a brilliant 4X/Wargame on what I assume is a tiny budget... And there are probably many other examples here...
pxoe 2y ago
Valve has demonstrated that it is not a perfect environment to make games because they just hardly made any. Perhaps it's precisely because there's no pressure, as well as their "flat structure" (which also results in a lack of pressure) that got blamed by their own employees for their lack of releases. (https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-unusual-corporate-structure-causes-its-problems-report-suggests/ https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-unusual-corporate-structure-c...)
account42 2y ago
Except the employees are still evaluated (by their peers) based on how they contribute to the company's bottom line. It could be a decent environment for making great games if Gabe wantet it to be. It isn't one right now, Gabe is still a businessman first.

chii 2y ago

> virtually limitless resources so the staff can strive to make art with love and without the corruption of chasing a bottom line. which means they have no obligation to ship. And so it is with the valve-time, they never shipped. Some pressure (monetary usually) is required. Not to mention that "strive to make art" is not a commercially viable objective - the owners of steam will basically be operating a charity for these artists.

justinrubek 2y ago
Obligation to ship is overrated. Not everything has to be made in a crunch time marathon. There are lots of avenues to be explored without the constant pressure to perform. I think it's a good thing if they take their time crafting things.
- account42 2y ago
  Sounds good in theory but doesn't usually work out in practice. In the real world, art benefits from restrictions.
willis936 2y ago
>the owners of steam will basically be operating a charity for these artists If that's what it takes to make something worth playing, then so be it. Was Bungie in its day a charity? Or did they just get it? 20 years later the magic is gone and Microsoft is desperately trying to figure out how to make the goose lay an egg. As long as they're optimizing quarterly reports they'll never get there.
- account42 2y ago
  Too bad for you (and me) that it's not us deciding this but Gabe and he prefers micro transactions, loot boxes and other profit schemes over art.

Ekaros 2y ago

Look at Star Citizen on other end... Too much resources can lead to endless scope creep, moving targets and potentially never actually shipping anything. Right constraints make things happen.

ascagnel_ 2y ago
I think that's on the game's director, Chris Roberts, because it's not the only time it happened. Roberts was the lead on Digital Anvil's "Freelancer", until the publisher (Microsoft), frustrated at the scope creep and protracted dev cycle, bought out the studio, demoted Roberts, and cut features so they could ship the thing.

BlueTemplar 2y ago

That's only the case if you are so blinded by advertising that you don't see the innovations happening in the low(er) budget media.

willis936 2y ago
Not at all. Where are the low and mid budget movies? Where are the games publishers on low budget games? Art as a business has transitioned to investor gambling rather than having any thought for the quality of the product. That's what I take issue with. Sure single person self-funded passion projects exist. They always have and they always will. And sure what one person can do is more than they ever could in the past. It's still not the same as something that's forged by a team of visionaries each with unique backgrounds and skillsets. Frost makes the point more well spoken and stylish than me often. https://youtu.be/gZffFoQekcc https://youtu.be/gZffFoQekcc
- BlueTemplar 2y ago
  > Where are the low and mid budget movies? At Cannes and your local 'art' cinema ? To be fair, I don't watch movies much, but I do still go to these sometimes. > Where are the games publishers on low budget games? Who said anything about publishers ? (And Valve dumped theirs as soon as they could.) > Sure single person self-funded passion projects exist. They always have and they always will. And sure what one person can do is more than they ever could in the past. It's still not the same as something that's forged by a team of visionaries each with unique backgrounds and skillsets. Ok, I have no idea what you're talking about, are you "no-true-scotsmanning" here ? We have a great recent example : "Factorio (: Space Age)", which started as a one-person idea, took form as a 3-person company, got after release a 20k€ Indiegogo funding, then blazed a trail of success over the next 12 years, now with something like 5 million sales for the base game and a 30 person company. How is that not "a team of visionaries each with unique backgrounds and skillset" ?! Or the amateurs at Spring-Recoil / Zero-K / BAR, which show how you can do that even better than the professional, commercial RTS. Or indeed one person projects like Shadow Empire (with some publisher support), which show how you can make a brilliant 4X/Wargame on what I assume is a tiny budget... And there are probably many other examples here...

pxoe 2y ago

Valve has demonstrated that it is not a perfect environment to make games because they just hardly made any. Perhaps it's precisely because there's no pressure, as well as their "flat structure" (which also results in a lack of pressure) that got blamed by their own employees for their lack of releases. (https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-unusual-corporate-structure-causes-its-problems-report-suggests/ https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-unusual-corporate-structure-c...)

account42 2y ago

Except the employees are still evaluated (by their peers) based on how they contribute to the company's bottom line. It could be a decent environment for making great games if Gabe wantet it to be. It isn't one right now, Gabe is still a businessman first.