4 ms·

I like your point and analogy about safe places being a normal aspect of society, where like-minded people gather. Perhaps you're right that it's not the end of

by claar 2y ago

I like your point and analogy about safe places being a normal aspect of society, where like-minded people gather. Perhaps you're right that it's not the end of the world to have multiple massive social networks. Secondly, I find it so interesting that you come to HN for "contrary opinions" from your self-described "politically far left" viewpoint. I hold a politically right viewpoint, and I come to HN for the same reason - it feels far left of my own world view. I think it's pretty cool that HN can serve as a more neutral safe meeting place of minds.

TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
HN is literally owned and operated by a VC company. And a lot of the conversation is absolutely celebrating capitalism. It's as far from "far left" as might be imagined.
- achierius 2y ago
  Depends on what you mean by left. Some people, including many who would describe themselves as such, think "leftist" means things like pronouns and reparations, and are even happy to engage with capital when it supports their pet causes.
  - bbor 2y ago
    …source? I’ve literally never once met a capitalist leftist, only ones that still use the word to avoid alienating people, e.g. Sanders. No offense but I think this is a case of echo chambers in work impeding our discourse —- leftism is anti capitalism, and has been since its inception in France.
    - gethoht 2y ago
      I think it's more due to political ignorance and the overton window shifting right the last 50 years. People tend to equate modern liberalism, which is very much pro-markets and pro-capital, with leftism.
    - Veen 2y ago
      Two different things: left liberals and socialists.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  It’s populated by a lot of leftists that, while unhappy with the right, can have a sort of reasonable discussion about it though. I’m left, but I can listen to people that identify as right on HN and not roll my eyes, because they have good points as well. If you pick a random person off the street (left/right), your chances aren’t nearly so good.
- int_19h 2y ago
  Speaking as someone who self-identifies as far left, the conversation here can go either way. I know it's a common trope that HN is dominated by "Silicon Valley libertarians", but in my experience that isn't really the case when you look at up- and downvotes.
  - TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
    HN is a very strange beast. I do rather enjoy it, though.
  - BeefWellington 2y ago
    I think what you're noticing is that a simple left/right along a line is a poor way to express someone's political views. I suspect that because a huge portion of the HN crowd are educated IT workers / would-be founders, overall there's both a strong support for capitalism mixed with progressive social views. That doesn't really connect well with the political landscape in most of the western world and typically gets you labeled a centrist, regardless of how important those particular issues are to you.
    - int_19h 2y ago
      What you say is partly true, but it goes beyond that. It's not that uncommon to see even straight up anti-capitalist comments here that still get upvoted, or the kind of "market solves all" talk getting downvoted into oblivion. So I'd say there's a hefty chunk of the userbase that is also leaning strongly left economically.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  > HN is literally owned and operated by a VC company So? I have never seen instances where YC's organizational viewpoint controlled the overall discussion, and I think dang is probably the best moderator on the planet. Sure, HN has a focus around the "tech startup ecosystem", and that may attract a certain type of viewpoint, but I've never seen that viewpoint pushed from an institutional perspective.
scarecrowbob 2y ago
I don't doubt that you find HN to be left of your political position. A lot of folks I know find all kinds of things "left wing". A lot of my liberal friends think they are leftists, though most of my leftist friends would disagree. My conservative friends don't really draw that distinction between liberals and leftists, and at the same time my liberal friends often think my anarchist friends to be about on par with literal Nazis, horeshoe-theory wise. I suspect a lot of the Dem establishment neo-liberals (who are rapidly becoming neocons ala Rumsfield/Cheney) who make up a lot of this site see themselves as slightly left. Rationally left, but not part of the "revolutionary" left. Which, from my position, puts them fairly close to the Reagan conservatives, if you overlook some issues about gay folks and are took the 80s conservatives at their word rather than their deeds when it comes to race issues. However, I don't find this place to be a meeting of the minds. I find that HN is a place where I can observe what the sociopaths who have real capital and thus material political power think about the world, or at least what the their sycophantic mandarins work for those folks might think. I listen to what folks say here because I am genuinely curious about what their alien-to-me understandings of technology and political ethics will do in the larger world. I listen to folks here for the same reason I listen to left-wing folks digest nazi propaganda, read a lot of history, and try to hear what conversations are happening at the red neck bars and at gun shops I hang around. Cause that's who has no problem fucking with my world, and fuck with my world they have indeed. HN is not a place where I think any of my actual politics will find an audience. Though I am (likely unwisely) communicating now, I mostly just shut up when I am here, unless someone has something worthwhile to say about music.
- claar 2y ago
  Thanks for being open - I've learned a lot in this thread. I honestly had no idea that anyone "left of center" felt they couldn't openly share here, as I have always mentally categorized HN as a leftist echo chamber (hopefully that's not too blunt - it's just my honest perception). I naively assumed that it was only those more right-of-center that felt their worldviews and opinions were unwelcome here, judging from the instantly dead posts I see of anything remotely right-aligned. From your short share, I see that the echo-chamber is unwelcoming to a much broader sphere of humans than I realized. I find that super helpful to understand - so thank you for sharing.
kmeisthax 2y ago
>it feels far left of my own world view. Strange, because I've noticed over the past few years that HN has been sliding further to the right. Or at the very least it's susceptible to brigading. To be clear, it's not "right winger equals brigade[0]", it's "oh gee someone posted a story about EU external immigration and now the comments are full of people angry about asylum seekers who think the correct solution[1] is to shut down international law and start retroactively deporting citizens". For the sake of full transparency: I'm an open borders maniac, which makes me left wing by American standards and basically persona non grata in Europe. [0] I live with right-wingers, so I kinda have to be tolerant of them [1] If this had been anticipated and dealt with ahead of time, the correct solution would have been to invest in integration and have generous family visas. That's why the US doesn't have a migrant integration crisis like the EU does - we know how to welcome and inculturate people. The EU doesn't really do integration, it assumes everyone is a self-motivated tech worker who will do all the integration work themselves.
- Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
  The audience here skews towards those the truth. Of course, the ones that cannot tolerate any dissenting opinion will either whine or leave.
  - artimaeis 2y ago
    > The audience here skews towards those the truth. The truth is that this sentence is believed by every audience ever convened.
    - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
      However, this format doesn't immediately squash critical opinions (besides ␟ stuff), which eventually allows critical discourse to actually occur. Other side promote engagement. This site still rewards discourse.
    - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
      > The audience here skews towards those the truth. The truth is that this sentence is believed by every audience ever convened. Actually you are correct, I should had known better to type "truth", as if a thing existed. This site definitely skews towards objectivity.

by claar 2y ago

TRiG_Ireland 2y ago

HN is literally owned and operated by a VC company. And a lot of the conversation is absolutely celebrating capitalism. It's as far from "far left" as might be imagined.

achierius 2y ago
Depends on what you mean by left. Some people, including many who would describe themselves as such, think "leftist" means things like pronouns and reparations, and are even happy to engage with capital when it supports their pet causes.
- bbor 2y ago
  …source? I’ve literally never once met a capitalist leftist, only ones that still use the word to avoid alienating people, e.g. Sanders. No offense but I think this is a case of echo chambers in work impeding our discourse —- leftism is anti capitalism, and has been since its inception in France.
  - gethoht 2y ago
    I think it's more due to political ignorance and the overton window shifting right the last 50 years. People tend to equate modern liberalism, which is very much pro-markets and pro-capital, with leftism.
  - Veen 2y ago
    Two different things: left liberals and socialists.
Aeolun 2y ago
It’s populated by a lot of leftists that, while unhappy with the right, can have a sort of reasonable discussion about it though. I’m left, but I can listen to people that identify as right on HN and not roll my eyes, because they have good points as well. If you pick a random person off the street (left/right), your chances aren’t nearly so good.
int_19h 2y ago
Speaking as someone who self-identifies as far left, the conversation here can go either way. I know it's a common trope that HN is dominated by "Silicon Valley libertarians", but in my experience that isn't really the case when you look at up- and downvotes.
- TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
  HN is a very strange beast. I do rather enjoy it, though.
- BeefWellington 2y ago
  I think what you're noticing is that a simple left/right along a line is a poor way to express someone's political views. I suspect that because a huge portion of the HN crowd are educated IT workers / would-be founders, overall there's both a strong support for capitalism mixed with progressive social views. That doesn't really connect well with the political landscape in most of the western world and typically gets you labeled a centrist, regardless of how important those particular issues are to you.
  - int_19h 2y ago
    What you say is partly true, but it goes beyond that. It's not that uncommon to see even straight up anti-capitalist comments here that still get upvoted, or the kind of "market solves all" talk getting downvoted into oblivion. So I'd say there's a hefty chunk of the userbase that is also leaning strongly left economically.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> HN is literally owned and operated by a VC company So? I have never seen instances where YC's organizational viewpoint controlled the overall discussion, and I think dang is probably the best moderator on the planet. Sure, HN has a focus around the "tech startup ecosystem", and that may attract a certain type of viewpoint, but I've never seen that viewpoint pushed from an institutional perspective.

scarecrowbob 2y ago

I don't doubt that you find HN to be left of your political position. A lot of folks I know find all kinds of things "left wing". A lot of my liberal friends think they are leftists, though most of my leftist friends would disagree. My conservative friends don't really draw that distinction between liberals and leftists, and at the same time my liberal friends often think my anarchist friends to be about on par with literal Nazis, horeshoe-theory wise. I suspect a lot of the Dem establishment neo-liberals (who are rapidly becoming neocons ala Rumsfield/Cheney) who make up a lot of this site see themselves as slightly left. Rationally left, but not part of the "revolutionary" left. Which, from my position, puts them fairly close to the Reagan conservatives, if you overlook some issues about gay folks and are took the 80s conservatives at their word rather than their deeds when it comes to race issues. However, I don't find this place to be a meeting of the minds. I find that HN is a place where I can observe what the sociopaths who have real capital and thus material political power think about the world, or at least what the their sycophantic mandarins work for those folks might think. I listen to what folks say here because I am genuinely curious about what their alien-to-me understandings of technology and political ethics will do in the larger world. I listen to folks here for the same reason I listen to left-wing folks digest nazi propaganda, read a lot of history, and try to hear what conversations are happening at the red neck bars and at gun shops I hang around. Cause that's who has no problem fucking with my world, and fuck with my world they have indeed. HN is not a place where I think any of my actual politics will find an audience. Though I am (likely unwisely) communicating now, I mostly just shut up when I am here, unless someone has something worthwhile to say about music.

claar 2y ago
Thanks for being open - I've learned a lot in this thread. I honestly had no idea that anyone "left of center" felt they couldn't openly share here, as I have always mentally categorized HN as a leftist echo chamber (hopefully that's not too blunt - it's just my honest perception). I naively assumed that it was only those more right-of-center that felt their worldviews and opinions were unwelcome here, judging from the instantly dead posts I see of anything remotely right-aligned. From your short share, I see that the echo-chamber is unwelcoming to a much broader sphere of humans than I realized. I find that super helpful to understand - so thank you for sharing.

kmeisthax 2y ago

>it feels far left of my own world view. Strange, because I've noticed over the past few years that HN has been sliding further to the right. Or at the very least it's susceptible to brigading. To be clear, it's not "right winger equals brigade[0]", it's "oh gee someone posted a story about EU external immigration and now the comments are full of people angry about asylum seekers who think the correct solution[1] is to shut down international law and start retroactively deporting citizens". For the sake of full transparency: I'm an open borders maniac, which makes me left wing by American standards and basically persona non grata in Europe. [0] I live with right-wingers, so I kinda have to be tolerant of them [1] If this had been anticipated and dealt with ahead of time, the correct solution would have been to invest in integration and have generous family visas. That's why the US doesn't have a migrant integration crisis like the EU does - we know how to welcome and inculturate people. The EU doesn't really do integration, it assumes everyone is a self-motivated tech worker who will do all the integration work themselves.

Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
The audience here skews towards those the truth. Of course, the ones that cannot tolerate any dissenting opinion will either whine or leave.
- artimaeis 2y ago
  > The audience here skews towards those the truth. The truth is that this sentence is believed by every audience ever convened.
  - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
    However, this format doesn't immediately squash critical opinions (besides ␟ stuff), which eventually allows critical discourse to actually occur. Other side promote engagement. This site still rewards discourse.
  - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
    > The audience here skews towards those the truth. The truth is that this sentence is believed by every audience ever convened. Actually you are correct, I should had known better to type "truth", as if a thing existed. This site definitely skews towards objectivity.